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My first wife had a companion on her mission that was both crazy and obnoxious. I asked her how she managed and she said that she felt what she was there to do was more important than reacting to her situation, albeit a difficult one. Words to live by. Euhemerus wrote:However, Heber13, I don’t mean to probe you, but I’m not asking which ones are
helpful, I’m asking which ones are necessary. [quote]Hmmm…I’m trying to think how to respond…I guess I can’t seperate the two. If they are not helpful in any way…I can’t imagine they are necessary. I don’t believe God requires insignificance. I have become much more a pragmatist in my faith nowadays. Euhemerus wrote:Which ones do you think are necessary (in a general sense, not just for Heber13)?
Hmmmm…such deep questions from Eu…thanks for making me think a little.I would say none are in general necessary. I only know of some that are necessary for Heber13 (the ones that are helpful in becoming more Christ-like), and make no claims on the rest of the world. I fully believe my good buddy of another faith is further along in becoming more God-like than myself…because he’s a better guy than I am. But that’s ok, the race isn’t on speed but on destination.
God himself has never given any commandments that I am aware of. There are however many instances of men claiming to have commandments from God. They may be from God they may not. So in reality the commandments that we talk about are only as good as the belief in the men who relay them. The history of the world is full of instances of men issuing commandments from God to control the behavior of their followers. What makes any prophets better than another. It seems many people are in need of a set of divine rules to live by. Others do just fine figuring it out on their own. As for me I believe there is one overriding commandment we should live by. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. You should cause no harm to others or as little as possible. Anyone who does not follow this should and will suffer the wrath of God and men. Commandments like the WofW may be good advice but that in no way makes them commandments from God
Cadence wrote:God himself has never given any commandments that I am aware of. There are however many instances of men claiming to have commandments from God. They may be from God they may not. So in reality the commandments that we talk about are only as good as the belief in the men who relay them.
Cadence, I think that is so true!
In fact, a while ago we discussed on this thread (see link below) an idea that the scriptures don’t really contain commandments, just teachings and then churches interpret that into commandments (which, like you said, are of men mingled with scripture).
http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1206http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1206” class=”bbcode_url”> I agree with you on the Golden Rule, and see that is basically taught in almost every major religion around the world, and of course, is rooted in the 2 Great Commandments Christ taught and Ray explained so well in his post.
Cadence wrote:
As for me I believe there is one overriding commandment we should live by. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. You should cause no harm to others or as little as possible. Anyone who does not follow this should and will suffer the wrath of God and men. Commandments like the WofW may be good advice but that in no way makes them commandments from God
I agree, Cadence. But there’s more.You previously asked:
Quote:I’m not asking which ones are helpful, I’m asking which ones are necessary.
I think that we are required to live in congruence with every ‘commandment’ that deep down within ourselves, we believe is ‘true’. Consciously or not. And I believe that we are tasked with working the list over. There are tools for doing this, but first we must realize the task at hand, and then we must use the tools, again, with integrity.
HiJolly
Cadence wrote:
As for me I believe there is one overriding commandment we should live by. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.My one problem with that the kind of things that some people would do to themselves are not necessarily good, particularly if they have a masochistic streak, low self-esteem or self-harm. I’m not putting this very well… If you thrive on criticism of yourself, how is doing that to others particularly good?
Sam, I wrote the following post on Mormon Matters about what the Golden Rule does not say. “What the Golden Rule Does NOT Say: or, Jesus wouldn’t recognize that justification” (
http://mormonmatters.org/2010/04/28/what-the-golden-rule-does-not-say-or-jesus-wouldnt-recognize-that-rationalization/ SamBee wrote:Cadence wrote:
As for me I believe there is one overriding commandment we should live by. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.My one problem with that the kind of things that some people would do to themselves are not necessarily good, particularly if they have a masochistic streak, low self-esteem or self-harm. I’m not putting this very well… If you thrive on criticism of yourself, how is doing that to others particularly good?
I was using that quote more as a general statement that we should treat others with respect and kindness regardless of how we treat ourselves.
This is such a great topic. At what I see now as the beginning of my faith crisis, I was so overwhelmed by the multitude of “commandments” that must be “kept” in order to attain “exaltation”. I remember giving a Relief Society lesson from the Joseph Smith manual and crying (and I actually mean sobbing) through the whole thing because I knew I just couldn’t do it. Those feelings led me to wonder why God would make it impossible for me to live with Him again. I guess I was feeling a little like Heber13. I still lapse into that feeling whenever I become more active at church. I can’t seem to shut out the “shoulds” and focus on what is best for my own spiritual progression. It is a difficult balance, so it is nice to hear how others are thinking about it. Heber13 wrote:I would say none are in general necessary. I only know of some that are necessary for Heber13 (the ones that are helpful in becoming more Christ-like), and make no claims on the rest of the world. I fully believe my good buddy of another faith is further along in becoming more God-like than myself…because he’s a better guy than I am. But that’s ok, the race isn’t on speed but on destination.
Wuss!
😯 😯 (not sayin’ I am one BTW)HiJolly wrote:I think that we are required to live in congruence with every ‘commandment’ that deep down within ourselves, we believe is ‘true’. Consciously or not. And I believe that we are tasked with working the list over. There are tools for doing this, but first we must realize the task at hand, and then we must use the tools, again, with integrity.
Actually, this would be my response to my question. Good thoughts HiJolly!Euhemerus wrote:Wuss!
You’re a wuss. And you’re a Cotton-headed-ninny-muggins.Euhemerus wrote:Seriously though, now you’re starting to sound like me. Soon you’ll be a relativist!
I know…I’ve come a long way, huh, sensei?While I have long believed in a universal truth and laws that even God must adhere to in order to stay God, and that I must find out what they are so I can become like God…I have started to believe that in this life, I don’t know if I can ever formulate those into rules or commandments that work for everyone. I can only believe they work for me. And so, I am stuck between believing there are universal laws we must follow in order to progress to be like God, yet they will be relative to each individual and our circumstances.
While a delusional murderer might be thinking his sacrifices to the gods by killing innocent people are laws he must obey…I can’t accept that can be tolerated in a civilized society, and so must believe that is not right for me. But Abraham thought it was commanded of him. Joseph Smith thought polygamy was an eternal law, but I do not believe it is for me.
So, all this is to circle back and think that I still believe laws exist out there, and it is my experience to seek them out, test them, and live them. Perhaps how I experience them is relative to me, even if they are independently universally correct??
Cadence wrote:SamBee wrote:Cadence wrote:
As for me I believe there is one overriding commandment we should live by. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.My one problem with that the kind of things that some people would do to themselves are not necessarily good, particularly if they have a masochistic streak, low self-esteem or self-harm. I’m not putting this very well… If you thrive on criticism of yourself, how is doing that to others particularly good?
I was using that quote more as a general statement that we should treat others with respect and kindness regardless of how we treat ourselves.
I know you were, but I thought it was worth exploring the massive hole in that philosophy. It appears in most religions, but it doesn’t allow for the fact that some people do not like themselves or love themselves, and beat themselves up metaphorically, psychologically and even literally. We can think of bulimics or anorexics, wrist slashers and suicides, in this way, people who abuse their bodies, or have experienced anguish, people who allow themselves to be used for whatever reason and in all cases, the road to healthiness is a degree of self-love. But there are still those who “counteract” this line.
Old-Timer wrote:Sam, I wrote the following post on Mormon Matters about what the Golden Rule does not say.
I enjoyed your post, as always, and it gave me food for thought. Particularly agreed with the bit about non-Mormons preaching at Mormons (which I suppose cuts both ways) in a negative manner.
However, I’m not sure it necessarily covers what I was getting at here, unless I read it wrongly.
In creative writing, there is also a “golden rule”, albeit a different one, when it comes to creating characters. Nearly every possible attitude or view has appeared in a human mind somewhere, no matter how improbable. Sometimes I have imbued characters with views or opinions which I have deliberately “flipped” from my own. In some cases, the vast majority of people would disagree with the opinion, but someone has thought it. There are people, for example, who want the human race extinct, want a nuclear war, want an end to individual choice, want an end to democracy, want the ecosystem to completely collapse, think cannibalism and rape are okay and so on. Hardly anyone, including some of the most destructive people on Earth, considers themselves evil, but there are one or two who have. Aleister Crowley, for example, claimed to. They would hold minority views, but they exist. So in trying to create characters, I’ve given them views such as these which are completely different from my own, even a mirror. I won’t say my stories have been good, but I realize I have to try and guess other people’s opinions.
A lot of the views I’ve mentioned are dangerous, even repulsive, but people still hold them, and on the basis of the aforementioned Golden Rule, it wouldn’t really work for them.
That quote from Matthew –
Quote:Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children
Sadly, there are those who would give their son a stone, or a snake. We read about such people in the papers. They are few and far between, but they exist… that’s partly why I have a problem with Jesus’ teaching here. I normally am very touched by Jesus’ words in the NT, because I think that they represent some of the greatest teachings in the Bible, and an antidote to the excesses of Paul… not to mention what church have done in his name… but as I say, serpent and stone parents are out there.
I understand and agree, Sam – but there are very, very few things that can apply univerally. “There must needs be opposition in ALL things” is one universal truism, perhaps – and it says, essentially, that there are no truly universal standards when agency is involved. There always will be those who provide the exception that proves the rule. In this case, I think it is instructive that Jesus was addressing people who had traveled to see and hear him (those who cared enough to put forth some effort to be taught) – and using them as an example of people who wouldn’t give stones and fish. He then reminded them of their fallen state (“being evil”) and commanded them to follow the Golden Rule.
I’m not sure he would have given that exact counsel to a bunch of Pharisses, and I’m not sure he would have done so to the evil spirits cast out of the swine (assuming a literality I don’t assume). I’m sure he wouldn’t give that advice to masochists or psychopaths.
So, in summary, thanks for pointing out the opposition in this thing. I agree with you – and use it to prove the Golden Rule right.
I like this discussion! The commandment to “do unto others as you’d have them do unto you” seems contingent upon following the 2nd greatest commandment…to love others as ourselves. We are not only commanded to love others, but also to love ourselves! That doesn’t necessarily mean I pamper myself all day at the salon. It just means that we LEARN (by trial & error) how to love ourselves & others. Realizing there are many interpretations of love (5 love languages is a start)… because what is “best” for myself or others at any given moment will vary & may not even be known by us at that time.
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