Historic Mormon Conundrums – one sentence thoughts.

[Anonymous]

The lost 116 pages – Religious experiences can’t be reproduced on demand, which is a powerful argument for taking them with a large grain of salt.

Brigham Young – A dynamic leader who did what was required.

Mountain Meadows – We actually have apologized, JMB. Unless you want an official acknowledgment that it was ordered from the top down, which isn’t certain and certainly won’t ever be admitted.

Spiritual Eyes vs. Actual Vision – Sometimes, actual vision doesn’t produce the results you need, whether it actively contradicts what you want or is just silent. I’ve never heard someone have a revelation that actually causes them to rethink anything of much importance.

The fact that prophets no longer testify of actually talking/seeing/speaking with God – I think this is because they lie less now.

Jackson County – Well, Zion is where you make it, and that’s where they were at the time.

Different Accounts of the First Vision – I don’t see how this is all that damning an argument except insofar as it shows what we should already know: you simply can’t trust uncorroborated memories, regardless of who comes up with them.

Priesthood restoration – Our view of this doctrine actually makes sense, if you’re willing to accept the idea of divine messengers ordaining anybody.

The means of translating the BOM – This issue doesn’t matter to me. The Church-approved vision and what actually happened are basically the same: JS got the book through supernatural means. Either you believe that or you don’t.

[Anonymous]

Gabe P wrote:

We actually have apologized, JMB. Unless you want an official acknowledgment that it was ordered from the top down, which isn’t certain and certainly won’t ever be admitted.

Yes, I actually should not have been so quick to write that. You’re right. I have read Elder Oaks interview with PBS and he is very sympathetic. And yes, we have no certainty it was ordered from the top down. I retract that part.

[Anonymous]

Gabe P wrote:

Spiritual Eyes vs. Actual Vision – Sometimes, actual vision doesn’t produce the results you need, whether it actively contradicts what you want or is just silent. I’ve never heard someone have a revelation that actually causes them to rethink anything of much importance.

@jmb and gabe

I’m going to be the mystic here and testify of revelation. I have had many such revelations. Revelations are not too sacred to share in the Stage 2 sense of the phrase. Rather, they are not translatable to human language in the Stage 5 sense of the phrase. Joseph Smith was a prophet really and truly, just as you can be, and hopefully already are. The transcendent experience is simply impossible to share. It can’t be done. Ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you. “Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All.” -Jesus Christ, Gospel of Thomas (Valoel’s signature). But here’s the great secret and balancer: the reality of you two as humans like myself is equally as great as the transcendent reality I see in revelation. Revelation cannot trump the humanity/divinity of you two (and your 6,000,000,000 sisters and brothers).

[Anonymous]

Yeah, I agree with you on that and wish I could feel that way. It’s very difficult for me because I can easily see how “revelations” that I feel I have received can be traced to my self interests, and I see the same thing in others. I do believe there’s an ideal better than my experience, I just don’t know how to get there (or get closer) right now.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I can easily see how “revelations” that I feel I have received can be traced to my self interests, and I see the same thing in others.

This is a valid question, and here are some thoughts I’ve read elsewhere on this topic.

– Some have theorized that if a “revelation” doesn’t contradict what you already believe, it can’t be proven to be a revelation. That’s an interesting idea. If it is what you already believe, confirmation bias could certainly be at play.

– If we don’t find revelation provocative, maybe we are past feeling or don’t “have ears to hear” or to comprehend the real meaning. The scriptures, esp BOM, certainly say this repeatedly.

– If we judge all spiritual input by whether or not it matches our own view, we are discounting the possibility that God’s view differs from our own. We limit God to being us on our best day. (Personally I think we all do this – recreate God in our own image).

– Everyone has different “spiritual gifts.” The way I see that, some people have a very acute sense of smell. Others are keen optical observers. Likewise, spiritually, some have meaningful dreams. Some have strong emotional responses to information that is presented. Others are able to discern people’s intentions. We don’t all have the same qualities or traits. Some traits lend themselves to different situations (e.g. you can’t use your ability to discern people’s intentions to translate ancient records).

– I tend to think that “revelation” should be just that – the uncovering of something hidden. In which case, it could be in our self-interest or not.

What if “revelation” is really just uncovering things within us that are hidden?

[Anonymous]

@Tom Haws

Tom, I dearly want to understand you. From your posts (the few I’ve read) I’ve very perplexed as to your views in general. You seem like you’re spiritual, yet realistic. In my mind, these two things contradict. I try to reconcile them, but I fail miserably. Maybe I’m just not very spiritual, maybe it’s just not one of my gifts. In fact, this is one of the things that led me here. I have never felt like I had an unmistakable witness that the church is true. When I make decisions, I make them using rational thought. I have always prayed over them, but virtually never had any divine manifestation of what I should choose. So I end up choosing what I think is best.

So do you believe Joseph was the prophet of the restoration, and the prophet we claim he was in the church, or was he a talented mystic? Or is this issue simply not that black and white for you? I must confess that at this stage of my life I see too much psychology in our “revelations” to really buy too much into the idea that they’re from God. That is to say, I believe and have witnessed powerful spiritual experiences, but I do not believe they are some avenue to transcendent truth from God. They are more likely spiritual avenues to help us in our journey, to become one with nature, to reach “nirvana” as it were.

@hawkgrrrl

You bring up some good ideas. For me, as I said above, revelations are not transcendent truths from God. Since people, the world over, have used spiritual confirmation to confirm their flavor of religion, I don’t (currently) believe that just because a TBM says they “know” the church is God’s “only true and living” church on earth – makes it so. They “know” this by spiritual confirmation, which has proven to be an unreliable source of “truth” for thousands of years. In fact, this is usually the exact same mechanism used by various cults to catch followers and entrap them. Hence, I can believe in revelation that gives me insight into the world, or humanity, or spirituality, but I don’t accept it as universal truth for all people the world over. Nor do I think I should act on these “revelations” if there is overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary. That may mean that I am “past feeling” or don’t “have ears to hear,” but to me this is wisdom.

I guess I am finding it difficult to maintain rational thought, and still allow for revelation. This may be due to a warped view of revelation that I have. Maybe I need to redefine it.

[Anonymous]

I will take a shot at this ..

Blacks=Whites

Polygamy-Thou shalt not lie. And to your wife of all people..of all things to possibly lie about. Still believe he was “struck down” for this.

The means of translating the BOM-See Southpark..

The 3 witnesses-Better than two I suppose.

The 8 witnesses-They mostly have very similar last names.

Brigham Young-Might have it coming to him.

The Blood Doctrine-Only the most Christ-like doctrines for Christs Church.

DNA evidence not aligned with BOM-That evidence will change in a few months.

Re-baptism-Sounds cool .. maybe easy to abuse.

Homosexuals=Heterosexuals

Masonry similarities to the Temple-Of Course.

The fact that prophets no longer testify of actually talking/seeing/speaking with God-Have they stopped speaking for him as well? – Who are we sustaining and for what then?

Adam-God Theory-Eve-God Theory would have gotten more attention.

Secret Tunnels-I like to hold my breath in tunnels. – Heard they were those cool ones that shoot you up near your house in a secret telephone booth from the conference center.- Probably too cool to be true.

White Salamander-Need to learn about this weird sounding thing.

Zelf-This one too.

Spiritual Eyes vs. Actual Vision-My mom swears she has seen Jesus twice(Actual Vision). I wish some other people could be more clear about it.

Different Accounts of the First Vision-I choose the one the Church likes b/c it makes me feel most spirited.

The “real” origin of The Word of Wisdom-If they only knew .. what they started.

Quakers on the Moon-Embarrassing.

[Anonymous]

jmb275 wrote:

You seem like you’re spiritual, yet realistic.

Wow! What a compliment!

jmb275 wrote:

Maybe I’m just not very spiritual, maybe it’s just not one of my gifts.

Ditto (after all, I am an engineer too). I couldn’t have been more surprised at the “new sight” that resulted from my “second conversion” five years ago. I think it takes a severe, prolonged crisis (combined with choice) to drive us slackers (myself, at least) to the spiritual discipline necessary for serious growth.

jmb275 wrote:

In fact, this is one of the things that led me here. I have never felt like I had an unmistakable witness that the church is true. When I make decisions, I make them using rational thought.

I value rational thought. I think you are on the right track.

jmb275 wrote:

So do you believe Joseph was the prophet of the restoration, and the prophet we claim he was in the church, or was he a talented mystic? Or is this issue simply not that black and white for you?

For me at least, the issue is black and white, but Joseph wasn’t. And the answer isn’t. I know where I stand, but I can’t express it unambiguously very well. There may be children listening. The best straight answer I have been able to come up with (and I hope it isn’t misleading) is that I don’t believe the Father ever leaves or left any of His children without all the guidance and direction they need. And you don’t have to know or believe anything special about Joseph Smith to enter the rest of the Lord while yet in the flesh. Does that help?

jmb275 wrote:

I must confess that at this stage of my life I see too much psychology in our “revelations” to really buy too much into the idea that they’re from God.

You are on the right track! I assume you mean “straight from God”or “unsullied from God”. A sister on these forums in a thread shared a revelation she received that was very telling. To the best of my understanding, the first sentence was purest truth, so that you could just about say it was verbatim from Heaven, and she put it in quotation marks. And then she expounded on it. But this is a great symbol of how we are: she never added the closing quotation mark. The revelation never ended! Hmm. Ponder the symbolism of that.

jmb275 wrote:

That is to say, I believe and have witnessed powerful spiritual experiences, but I do not believe they are some avenue to transcendent truth from God. They are more likely spiritual avenues to help us in our journey, to become one with nature, to reach “nirvana” as it were.

Well spoken. Is truth separate from being?

[Anonymous]

@jmb275 – A few additional thoughts to consider. BTW, I don’t have any specific answers here, just some questions to ponder.

Quote:

For me, as I said above, revelations are not transcendent truths from God.

This is one reason I sometimes wonder about the “God within us” – the idea that God is like an internal program that we activate that can give us guidance that is uniquely suited to us. But it’s just an idea.

Quote:

Since people, the world over, have used spiritual confirmation to confirm their flavor of religion, I don’t (currently) believe that just because a TBM says they “know” the church is God’s “only true and living” church on earth – makes it so.

It’s very easy for me to see others’ experiences as confirmation bias, and even to be skeptical of my own as confirmation bias (provided they only confirm what I wanted anyway). But I have begun to think that’s a little narrow-minded, too. Maybe it’s “true” for someone individually because it’s what they need. Maybe I shouldn’t discount others’ experiences. But that doesn’t mean they work for me. Only that I respect that they work for that person. This is one reason I’m skeptical about the value of “testifying.” Your “truth” may not be my “truth,” and when your “truth” resonates with skepticism in me (e.g. sounds like far-fetched storytelling or wishful thinking), it actually undermines my altruism, compassion and spirituality because I get caught up in judging others, which is infinitely more fun.

Quote:

They “know” this by spiritual confirmation, which has proven to be an unreliable source of “truth” for thousands of years. In fact, this is usually the exact same mechanism used by various cults to catch followers and entrap them.

I’d be a little careful here. You seem very concerned about being fooled or manipulated. Why is that? Have you been manipulative or fooled others (projection)? Are you likely to overreact based on previous feelings of betrayal? Also – is it better to be too skeptical or too gullible? (I’m not necessarily asking you to answer any of these; they are just things I try to consider).

Quote:

Hence, I can believe in revelation that gives me insight into the world, or humanity, or spirituality, but I don’t accept it as universal truth for all people the world over.

I think there are some things that are universal truths (e.g. “being a jerk is bad”), but I think you are specifically referring to the LDS (and other churches’) authoritative claims which don’t seem very relevant to me. That may be a church’s argument for relevance, but they don’t seem very related to my personal growth or enlightenment as an individual, which is my primary concern.

Quote:

Nor do I think I should act on these “revelations” if there is overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary.

Well, I wouldn’t act on anything that others say is a revelation that you don’t agree is right. That’s just common sense.

Quote:

That may mean that I am “past feeling” or don’t “have ears to hear,” but to me this is wisdom.

My only caution (that I have to remember for me also) is that it’s hard to hear or feel what contradicts what we already believe. It’s better to question our own and others’ assumptions. At least that is my opinion. Today.

[Anonymous]

jmb275 wrote:

@Tom Haws

Tom, I dearly want to understand you. From your posts (the few I’ve read) I’ve very perplexed as to your views in general. You seem like you’re spiritual, yet realistic. In my mind, these two things contradict. I try to reconcile them, but I fail miserably.

Just a couple quick thoughts:

“Becoming comfortable with paradox” is associated with stage 5, let that stew in the back of your mind as you go forward. Bushman says people caught up in black/white, either/or thinking are destined for difficulty with the church. I consider myself a recovering absolutist, I know how difficult it is to adjust your worldview/paradigm.

Consider personal revelation as just that – personal and subjective. Maybe it’s impossible to discover universal truth through personal revelation. If by definition my own revelations cannot bind others (in what they should do) then why would I think some of my answers are universal and apply to other people? (As in a universal ‘true’ church.) In my mind spirituality is deeply personal, it makes my insights that much more valuable.

[Anonymous]

Orson wrote:

Consider personal revelation as just that – personal and subjective. Maybe it’s impossible to discover universal truth through personal revelation. If by definition my own revelations cannot bind others (in what they should do) then why would I think some of my answers are universal and apply to other people? (As in a universal ‘true’ church.) In my mind spirituality is deeply personal, it makes my insights that much more valuable.

Another angle: perhaps there really is a universal ‘true’ church LDS might refer to as the “Church of the Firstborn”. And perhaps our personal, subjective revelations are happening personally and subjectively to people all over the world, bringing us one at a time into that church.

[Anonymous]

Another angle:

Perhaps that movement about which Tom writes couldn’t have moved forward in quite the same way without at least the overall theology that postulates that we can become united in Godhood (sealed as an exalted, interdependent family of equals). Perhaps the Restoration was as much about paradigm altering as about anything else – that the literalness of sealing ordinances and their impact on the dead might not be as important as the symbolism of those ordinances and their impact on the living (the turning of the children’s hearts to the fathers).

I believe there is TREMENDOUS power in the “big picture” that too often gets lost in our fumbling attempts to sort through the distracting minutiae – and I believe the “big picture” of Mormonism is cosmically profound.

[Anonymous]

Thank you again all. You have given me much to ponder. I’m sure it will take a lot of time before I fully understand the impact of what you’re getting at.

[Anonymous]

Ok, Ray and JMB. You entice me to lay more cards on the table regarding the restoration. I do believe, in the sense Ray offers, that Joseph Smith’s restoration was real for somebody. Joseph Smith added something for somebody. Did Joseph Smith leave the world a better place? I don’t know. Did he move the work of God forward or backward? I don’t know. Did he advance the Gospel of Jesus Christ on earth? I don’t know.

[Anonymous]

I think these are all 1 sentance (maybe a few run-on sentances?)

Blacks – At one time, skin color separated kingdoms and families for a reason, but that was thousands of years ago…today skin color like hair color doesn’t matter.

Polygamy – It could work under perfect conditions, but “I say unto you, that because all men are not just it is not expedient that ye should have a king or kings to rule over you.” (MSH 29:16)

The means of translating the BOM – The definition of a miracle, I can’t explain it but it worked.

The 3 witnesses – In or out of the church, they never denied it.

The 8 witnesses – Groupthink.

The Pearl of Great Price (that’s a BIG one) – Like all revelation, it takes faith.

Brigham Young – Strong leader but not perfect.

The Blood Doctrine – Sounds like an Old Testament teaching which shouldn’t be required after the Atonement, which is sufficient for all.

DNA evidence not aligned with BOM – How do you know which needs to be proven true – Book of Mormon archeology details or DNA testing procedures?

re-baptism – After excommunication, the repented soul can have all blessings restored without needing to perform all the ordinances again, so re-baptism isn’t needed even though it was done at times with good intentions.

Homosexuals – Line upon line, and choice upon choice, choices can change a person’s thoughts and feelings, but church members need sensitivity training to welcome and accept all people into the congregation.

Masonry similarities to the Temple – Restoring truth can mean finding bits and pieces in various places and pulling it all together correctly.

The fact that prophets no longer testify of actually talking/seeing/speaking with God – Attests to their integrity…their honest.

Adam-God Theory – Just a theory.

Mountain Meadows – They never said they were perfect…but when it gets that bad, you MUST investigate and apply justice.

Secret Tunnels – Before reality TV, people amused themselves with fun legends.

Dannites – Secret combinations can be dangerous

Lafferty Brothers – Every religion has whackos – Krakauer’s book started with an attempt to present unbiased facts, but had to sell the book with some interesting things, so he added a bunch of stretches.

White Salamander – Shows how hard it is to create a forgery that stands the test of time, which is another testament of how amazing Joseph Smith’s work was.

The Wave Stone – Never heard of it.

The Sword of Laban – If it is in the cornerstone of the Salt Lake Temple, now’s a good time to crack it open and take a look.

Mummies – Just a body without a spirit, with more questions than answers.

Parchment – Old stuff is really cool.

Dolemite – Never saw it.

Zelf – An interesting little tid-bit but not important to me whether it’s a story or truth.

Cain – Good lesson: don’t be the 1st to screw up or you’ll be the example of what not to do forever and ever.

Three Nephites – No citings in Malaysia, proving the America’s are the Land of Promise and not Malay.

John the Beloved – Wrote some good stuff.

Jackson County – Garden of Eden? Really? Have you been there?

Destruction of The Nauvoo Expositor – ?

Kirtland Financial Crisis – As if persecution wasn’t enough.

Spiritual Eyes vs. Actual Vision – Both send sensory signals to the brain to be interpreted.

Different Accounts of the First Vision – Since it wasn’t video-taped, we need to rely on memories of human beings that are trying to relay what actually happened.

The “real” origin of The Word of Wisdom – Emma

Quakers on the Moon – sounds hoaky, what-ev

The lost 116 pages – I’m surprised they’ve never been published after all this time, guess they really are lost.

Solomon Spaulding – See White salamander

Philastus Hurlbut – Witha name like that, his parents didn’t give him a chance…, seriously though…When once that light which was in them is taken from them they become as much darkened as they were previously enlightened, and then, no marvel, if all their power should be enlisted against the truth, and they, Judas-like, seek the destruction of those who were their greatest benefactors.

-Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, (2007),315–26

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