- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
mackay11 wrote:Old-Timer wrote:
…the LDS Church is not unique in ANY way …
But that’s kind of the problem for me. If the church really is everything it claims to be then surely it should be different to all the other churches.
If a prophet doesn’t actually act like a prophet or if a church said to be led by Christ doesn’t act like it one, then what conclusion should we reach?
Bingo.That’s not what I said, mackay11 – and ripping part of a sentence out of the sentence and presenting it as if it was the entire thought is not fair. I love you, friend, but, please, don’t do that to me. What I said was:
Quote:The LDS Church is not unique in ANY way
when it comes to having historical issues and not addressing them proactively for a relatively long time. That is RADICALLY different than claiming I said the LDS Church is not unique in any way. I would NEVER say that. The LDS Church and Mormon theology are unique in lots of ways – and I flat-out LOVE many of them. Others, not so much, but some of them are a huge part of why I joyfully and peacefully stay LDS.
Done That was a personal expression of frustration over having my words badly misrepresented – and they were badly misrepresented, even though I am sure it was completely unintentional. People express frustration here all the time. I rarely do to the same degree I just did, but please cut me some slack occasionally. I’m not just a moderator here; I am a real person, too – and nobody likes having what they say twisted to change the meaning radically, again, even unintentionally.
It struck a nerve. I responded personally. Please give me a little latitude to do that occasionally, just like I do regularly for all of you.
Besides, I said please.
Old-Timer wrote:That’s not what I said, mackay11 – and ripping part of a sentence out of the sentence and presenting it as if it was the entire thought is not fair. I love you, friend, but, please, don’t do that to me. What I said was:
Quote:The LDS Church is not unique in ANY way
when it comes to having historical issues and not addressing them proactively for a relatively long time. That is RADICALLY different than claiming I said the LDS Church is not unique in any way. I would NEVER say that. The LDS Church and Mormon theology are unique in lots of ways – and I flat-out LOVE many of them. Others, not so much, but some of them are a huge part of why I joyfully and peacefully stay LDS.
Fair cop Ray. Sorry. I didn’t mean to ‘clip’ your statement to suggest you felt there was nothing unique in any way at all about the church. I was on my phone and being lazy.
I’ve added a clarifying note to my previous comment (but left the first part intact for context). As mentioned in that post, my concern and reply is still the same, though should have been more detailed and balanced and I’m sorry to have misrepresented your original comment. I didn’t mean to put words in your mouth.
A large part of my disaffection is with the both the reality of the “historical issues” and the way they have not “addressed them proactively” – but much more the former.
It was heart-breaking to discover the church I’d served for 30+ years had so many hidden “historical issues.” The cover up (or “not addressing them proactively) was hurtful and made me no longer trust the church, but what truly crushed my convictions was the actual detail of the issues. It’s not so much the lack of proactivity from the church and more simply that the ‘big’ claims made by the church are undermined by the detail of the “historical issues.”
Saying every other church has historical issues and doesn’t “proactively address them” doesn’t work for me any more. Mormon claims are nothing like every other church so should not be held to the same standard.
I know what the Givens would say on topics like that. They tell us to change our paradigm and be more generous. We’re taught that Jesus Christ visited Joseph and others, in person, on multiple occasions. We’re taught that when a prophet speaks it is as if God himself is speaking. The “historical issues” lead me to the conclusion that those big claims are simply unsustainable. I know that’s not what you were saying, but what I’m saying is that the presence of “historical issues” and, in part, the cover up is my concern.
Thanks, mackay11. I understand and respect that. The reason I posted this is to point out that when people say the LDS Church is unique (or uniquely bad) in this regard they are wrong. Having historical issues and not addressing them proactively is not unique.
Struggling with the issues is valid. Period. Struggling with the Church not addressing them openly, directly and proactively is valid. Period. Claiming we are unique in having them or that they are uniquely bad is not. Period.
I beg to differ- +the Roman Catholics have big historical problems… from very shady beginnings involving forged documents and dodgy early popes, to torture and murder in middle ages, the Borgias, the repression of science to more recently involvement with dictatorships, the Mafia and financial corruption. While the Vatican has apologized for involvement with Hitler, and conducts scientific research, it hasn’t fully dealt with Latin America (genocide or Fascism)… and STILL promotes its origin myth.
Old-Timer wrote:Catholicism is an easy target, both due to its age but also its political position for much of its history.
Buddhism is known as a non-violent religion due mostly to the way it has been embraced by the West, but its history is full of marauding bandit priests …
Islam obviously has serious issues right now …
Protestants killed each other…
Agree with the statements above about historical problems in the past and how they were handled.I’d like to see some comparison of the LDS church and it’s dealing with history with another religion more along the same timelines. In our modern world where the Internet changes the landscape of information, it is hard to compare centuries of churches in the middle ages with modern events.
I’d be interested how Jehovah Witnesses have handled historical issues, or 7th Day Adventists, or Apostolic Christian Churches or the 10 million member Ahmadiyya Movement (Muslim).
It seems in our day and age, many movements that embrace being open and acknowledge things instead of hiding them do better over the long term. That may not have been true of generations past. It definitely wasn’t true in centuries past.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.