Holy Cow’s Joseph Smith Discussion cont’d

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

Bushman’s description of how the priesthood as both a sacral and administration function gave the members a stake in the church was also very enlightening. For all his bad decisions, JS also made a number of very smart ones for creating an organization that marches toward a goal with consistency. I wonder if he was a genius in certain respects. He seems to have had unusual talent in building organizations based on autonomy of revelation, and self-governance, something I admire. His doctrine was also an interesting blend of some of the best principles of his day…

I don’t know if I’d call it genius, but he absolutely knew how to motivate people. Joseph came up with all kind of positions that he could promote into for being loyal to him. He loved testing people’s loyalty, and he was always ready to give somebody a special position as a reward for their devotion. This definitely created a culture of obedience, which carried on after he was killed. Brigham Young picked it up right where Joseph left off, after removing everybody who he saw as a roadblock. My problem isn’t that I believe Joseph Smith was imperfect. I don’t care if his mistakes were legal/illegal, sins or not. What bothers me when I look at his life is that he just seems to be driven more and more by a lust for power as time goes on. Maybe he was a prophet. Maybe not. I’m still working on that. But when I look at the last 5-10 years of his life, I see what seems like a lot of manipulation, strong-arm tactics, and behavior that seems like he believed that he was irreproachable and above the law (God’s law and man’s law). And maybe it wasn’t a lust for power, but that what it seems like to me. And I have a hard time making any sense of it.

[Anonymous]

Holy Cow, read D&C 121 with your last comment in mind, especially the last verses we always quote about unrighteous dominion.

Quote:

“WE have learned by SAD experience . . . NEARLY ALL . . .”

I wrote about it in July 2011 in the following post:

“Understanding and Combating Unrighteous Dominion” (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2011/07/understanding-and-combatting.html)

[Anonymous]

I really appreciate the fact that Bushman took the time to write this book, Rough Stone Rolling. It has opened my eyes to the reasons our church culture insists on so many principles over time. The shadow of JS’s ideas are very long.

I went into the book really jaundiced, as you can imagine, about our religion. But a number of things have impressed me with Joseph Smith — and the fact that Bushman didn’t go Polyanna on him was a huge reason for it. I felt myself trusting Bushman’s look at history, and the spots where he softened or poured WDK (we don’t know) over issues were small enough (so far) that it didn’t sway my admiration for his approach to describing history.

Back to JS — I noticed a tendency for people to recapitulate after they sold out Joseph Smith. After the Missouri War, about 6-7 people, some of his closest friends in the development of the church — testified against him. All but one (Whitmer) later recanted and later rejoined the church. Joseph even brought some of them back into the fold, such as Orson Hyde who he sent to Israel for an information-gathering mission. The fact that so many people recapitulated, apparently on their own free will, and he accepted them back again was impressive. Particularly since Bushman portray’s JS as rather angry and intolerate of dissent.

I also started seeing Joseph as a bit of a social entrepreneur, something I can identify with given my own smaller scale service efforts over the last two years. And with social entrepreneurship, even under inspiration, and the best intentions, comes mistakes. For example, JS failed at establishing the Kirtland Bank, causing massive apostasy. His efforts to take a stand against he Missourian’s failed, Zion’s Camp failed. His attempt to influence Congress to redress the injustices the saints faced in Missouri, the Orson Hyde trip to Israel, as well as repeated attempts at establishing Zion were non-successes. His PR program to highlight the injustices of Missouri became a magnet for anti-Mormon publications that defined the religion for some time afterwards.

On the other hand, out of those failures came a number of successes, such as the organization of the church, his missionary efforts in England, the Book of Mormon, theology that people seem to like, and a huge number of people who seemed to believe him.

I also find that in starting new ventures, at its highest level, it’s a process of overcoming doubt. Mostly doubt in the people you need to help you engineer the change. There is a low tolerance for failure — especially early failure. I have developed my own ways of overcoming that kind of lack of commitment through what I will call “engineered faith-promoting experiences” (such as showing up at a meeting proposing a project, with money in hand from a local sponsor or philanthropist, as well as 10% of the project already realized). In spite of all the setbacks, he seemed to be able to sustain that faithful commitment in people. It is impressive — and he did it without any education too.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

I really appreciate the fact that Bushman took the time to write this book, Rough Stone Rolling. It has opened my eyes to the reasons our church culture insists on so many principles over time. The shadow of JS’s ideas are very long.

I went into the book really jaundiced, as you can imagine, about our religion. But a number of things have impressed me with Joseph Smith — and the fact that Bushman didn’t go Polyanna on him was a huge reason for it. I felt myself trusting Bushman’s look at history, and the spots where he softened or poured WDK (we don’t know) over issues were small enough (so far) that it didn’t sway my admiration for his approach to describing history.

Back to JS…

Ok…we can get back to the discussion, I just had to say thank you for the way you worded those first 2 paragraphs. It is exactly how I feel. Very grateful for the book and how it was written. I really like being able to get a balanced access to what was going on, without anti-websites making me feel questionable about the stuff, or apologetics explaining it away as if it isn’t a problem. Because to me…it is a problem. Many things Joseph did was problematic to me. And I will figure out how I process that…but appreciate Bushman laying it out there for me to do so without the baggage that comes along with someone else’s agenda to get me to think like them.

That is why I’m a fan of Bushman. Anyway…thanks, SD, for putting it so well.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

On the other hand, out of those failures came a number of successes…

…In spite of all the setbacks, he seemed to be able to sustain that faithful commitment in people. It is impressive…

I’ll just keep quoting SD today since they are striking me so deeply today…these are the thoughts that have been so important to me in my studies of church history, and my faith in the church. That things are not clean and perfect, as the white-washed legendary stories of our prophet were fed to me in church in hopes to inspire by focusing only on a simple inspiring version of history. Real life is messy, and yet…we see that like the Lotus flower that grows from the mud, good things happen, often not in spite of the messy history, but many times, because of it.

It seems God let’s bad things happen, because that is part of the experience for us. And seeing Joseph go through it, helps me be impressed with him as well, and helps me keep my views more mature and realistic, that the messy crap going on in my life is also part of what I need to go through. And I can go through my crises and survive. And in fact, beautiful things will come of it for me. Perhaps as Eve said, “There is no other way”.

If Joseph’s journey was squeaky clean…he saw a vision, angels restored truth, church was setup as it was supposed to be…well then…it all happens easy when you are righteous. I hoped that would be a recipe for life…obey and things are easy.

But my life, despite trying to do what is right, is filled with crap. I have found some comfort knowing it isn’t just me. Joseph grew in the mud too. Just like I need to.

His story is more meaningful and more beautiful to me, BECAUSE he made mistakes along the way. And yet, as SD said…we see good things come out of puzzling or even down right offensive things (like polygamy…I hate it!).

God can work with imperfect people, and make good things out of confusing or wrong choices. God is that good! That gives me hope for my life.

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