Holy Envy

[Anonymous]

I picked up the phrase ‘holy envy’ from (I think) a BCC post, and I really like it. My daughter plays basketball at a local Protestant church, and without having attended any of their services, I’ve noticed some things that make them different, I think in good ways, from the current practices of the Mormon church.

– their actual worship service is only about an hour long (no 3 hour block here haha) and you get to choose what time you attend because there are a few staggered throughout the day

– they allow for fellowshipping. (We were recently reminded by our bishop to go promptly to SS, it’s a problem where people are chatting in the halls after SM.)

– they have small, independent Bible study groups so you can choose how you want to learn about the scriptures. You can spend the whole year just on the Four Gospels if you want. You can actually go into deep doctrine if you want because you don’t have 48 1-hour lessons to get through the entire NT because next year we have to move on to something else.

– they have paid clergy which I KNOW is supposed to be a horrible thing but think about it. 1) it means their clergy has actually received some kind of training on theology and pastoral care 2) it means the guy running the congregation is NOT trying to do it in his spare time while holding down a full time job and because of that 3) maybe the guy running the congregation actually gets to see his family sometimes

– their church is attractive and not identical to all other Protestant churches in the area. It’s a nice place to hold a wedding. You don’t have to hold your reception on a basketball court.

– the rooms where children meet are welcoming and brightly colored. (Our Primary room has cinder block walls that have been painted beige, and windows that are frosted so that they let in a little light but you can’t actually see through them. Mmm, inviting)

– they sponsor Boy Scouts AND Girl Scouts

– anyone who works with children has to have a background check. I cannot stress enough how much I wish we were doing this. (Our ward building did eventually install doors with windows in them for all the Primary classrooms. That happened earlier this year. In 2015.)

– they have financial transparency

– they do actual, real community service that isn’t just for members of their congregation

– they get to choose how they will serve (we are ‘voluntold’)

– they have a great ‘sports ministry’ program which is how we got involved with this church. Again, this is for all children in the community, not just members of their congregation. While there is a small fee for participation, it mostly covers building maintenance and uniforms – the coaches and refs are all volunteers. And it’s a really well-run program – there has not been one single brawl on the court that I’ve seen. (And unlike Church ball, it’s for girls, too.)

– from what I can tell, members of this congregation actually look forward to going to church. I can’t even remember the last time I enjoyed that three hours we spend in church every Sunday. Probably not since I was in the singles ward.

Do you think that the Mormon church will ever let go of the idea that since we have prophetic revelation, the way we do everything, down to the 3 hour block, must be right and good? Do you think there are things we can learn from the practices of other churches? What would you implement or change if you could?

[Anonymous]

I like that list of things that you noticed go well at the other church. I don’t see them as universally “always” better, but I can see some good things for some people.

For example, the standard building layouts are perhaps boring, but I always know a LDS church when I see one…it looks familiar and when I visit…I can always find the drinking fountain

Joni wrote:

Do you think that the Mormon church will ever let go of the idea that since we have prophetic revelation, the way we do everything, down to the 3 hour block, must be right and good?

Not really. It is a very SLC-centric run church. I thought about this when in Australia and how I saw the same church buildings and the church experience was exactly the same as my America experience back home…and I think a lot of people find comfort in that…knowing you can go anywhere and they even have the same lesson topic scheduled. There are many efficiencies and advantages that prohibit it really moving away from that model, it seems to me.

Quote:

Do you think there are things we can learn from the practices of other churches?

ABSOLUTELY! And I do think we do this some, except we don’t get out to see what others do too often…we are very concerned with our own world and all else is “the world”. But there are some great things others do and I think at some level, church authorities keep an eye out for good ideas, even while we like to stay peculiar.

Quote:

What would you implement or change if you could?

I just think a real overhaul of the curriculum and lesson materials…more than what was just done…but more decentralized approach where they provided gospel topics and resources, but wards or stakes could pick the materials important to that area, and teach whatever gospel topics are inspired…not just a structured 2nd and 3rd hour lesson where the manual gets very specific on what questions to ask and what quotes to use.

[Anonymous]

Holy Envy… Batman. Burt Ward. Had to.

I’m a convert, no one else in my extended family is a member of the church, I also get out from time to time. I’ve seen many other churches. I’ve seen their appeal and obviously I saw the appeal of the LDS church, enough to join.

I think there’s a honeymoon period where everything is roses… right up until you become familiar with everyone’s bad habits. That said there are a few things that we could definitely be doing better, there’s always room for improvement.

* Choice of congregation goes a long way toward making our culture very distinct. If we could chose which ward we attended there would be massive changes from top to bottom. I think ward assignments are actually the thing that makes correlation possible, otherwise liberal members would seek out liberal wards, conservatives would seek out conservative wards, and everyone would run the show a little differently. Ward assignments also solve several problems of having a lay clergy, a bishop doesn’t end up developing a psychological disorder when there’s a mass exodus the day he is appointed.

Meanwhile many other churches operate under: Don’t like what the pastor preaches? Shop around until you find a church with one you like – even within the same religion. For some churches pastors have to audition for the job. What do you believe about xyz? :think: Don’t call us, we’ll call you. Next!

I believe our church looks at that process as being tossed about by every wind of doctrine, which is frowned on for obvious reasons. I believe the argument is that under that system people, not god, are running the show. I don’t think introducing choice of which ward people attend would ever fly but it would certainly shake things up.

Joni wrote:

their church is attractive and not identical to all other Protestant churches in the area. It’s a nice place to hold a wedding. You don’t have to hold your reception on a basketball court.

I’m actually a little surprised by just how important this has become to me. Some churches have really nice facilities and grounds, what I call “healing spaces.” There’s a courtyard, unique facilities, inspiring architecture, playgrounds for the children, etc. If you attend the same building for 20 years some of the mystique is bound to wear off but at least there’s something there. Our church is like stepping into a monochrome McDonalds, it’s the same no matter which one you walk into. A McBurlap’s if you will.

When it comes to inspiring places we put all our eggs in the temple basket but even the newer temples feel more utilitarian than inspiring.

This is just me complaining at this point. I doubt the church is going to come out with inspiring meetinghouse designs or begin tearing down existing buildings and replacing them. Ours is a church of function over form.

So I just mentioned two things that I’m sure will never change. 😳 What would I change if I could? The choice of ward thing. Hey, some people just want to watch the world burn.

[Anonymous]

Joni said:

Quote:

– they have paid clergy which I KNOW is supposed to be a horrible thing but think about it. 1) it means their clergy has actually received some kind of training on theology and pastoral care 2) it means the guy running the congregation is NOT trying to do it in his spare time while holding down a full time job and because of that 3) maybe the guy running the congregation actually gets to see his family sometimes

The clergy is most cases interviewed & hired by a congregation board or committee. They also have the power to fire based on performance.

The clergy is accountable to the congregation they serve.

[Anonymous]

There are definitely things the LDS church could do to be more accommodating and make wanting to attend church less of a chore.

Joni wrote:

– their actual worship service is only about an hour long (no 3 hour block here haha) and you get to choose what time you attend because there are a few staggered throughout the day

I would love to see a worship service an hour long (10 minutes shorter than now) with perhaps only two speakers limited to about 15 minutes each. More (worshipful) music would be nice. In a two hour block where SS is optional this would be ideal for me. I think there is some support for this in the upper levels but the problem is the sacred cows of PH/RS or SS – cutting either one is going to tee off a sizable part of the population (but for the life of me I can’t figure out why).

Quote:

– they allow for fellowshipping. (We were recently reminded by our bishop to go promptly to SS, it’s a problem where people are chatting in the halls after SM.)

Linger longer? I’ve been there three hours spending most of it being bored and it’s 1:00. I want to go home. Again, a shorter block would improve that situation for me.

Quote:

– they have small, independent Bible study groups so you can choose how you want to learn about the scriptures. You can spend the whole year just on the Four Gospels if you want. You can actually go into deep doctrine if you want because you don’t have 48 1-hour lessons to get through the entire NT because next year we have to move on to something else.

Great idea. This could actually work in our church if we weren’t so stuck to the schedule and the way things are “supposed to be.” You could still have a class for investigators/new members and a class for those that really don’t care to think and want to be told what to believe. In my ward we have enough thoughtful and faithful individuals that we could have a couple of groups where we could just discuss the scriptures (kind of book club style) without a prescribed lesson manual and schedule. I’m sure not every ward is like that.

Quote:

– they have paid clergy which I KNOW is supposed to be a horrible thing but think about it. 1) it means their clergy has actually received some kind of training on theology and pastoral care 2) it means the guy running the congregation is NOT trying to do it in his spare time while holding down a full time job and because of that 3) maybe the guy running the congregation actually gets to see his family sometimes

Definitely advantages to a paid clergy. I think it’s either that or divide up the bishop’s duties among more people and perhaps have paid full time counselor/admin types (perhaps one per several wards or a stake).

Quote:

– their church is attractive and not identical to all other Protestant churches in the area. It’s a nice place to hold a wedding. You don’t have to hold your reception on a basketball court.

– the rooms where children meet are welcoming and brightly colored. (Our Primary room has cinder block walls that have been painted beige, and windows that are frosted so that they let in a little light but you can’t actually see through them. Mmm, inviting)

Our class room walls are mostly white painted block. Except the RS room.

Quote:

– they sponsor Boy Scouts AND Girl Scouts

Scouts or not, there needs to be more equity in the programs – finances included.

Quote:

– anyone who works with children has to have a background check. I cannot stress enough how much I wish we were doing this. (Our ward building did eventually install doors with windows in them for all the Primary classrooms. That happened earlier this year. In 2015.)

Yep. Our building was built in the late 80s and does have windows in all the doors because the bishop at the time was very concerned about the potential for abuse. The newest buildings in our stake don’t have windows and neither do many of the older buildings. Another one of those things I can’t figure out.

Quote:

– they have financial transparency

Suggesting this is almost akin to heresy – but I don’t know why. What are they hiding?

Quote:

– they do actual, real community service that isn’t just for members of their congregation

Our stake is getting ready to implement the Just Serve program. I like the concept and I hope it works.

Quote:

– they get to choose how they will serve (we are ‘voluntold’)

There is certainly something to be said for the youth SS or Primary teacher or Scoutmaster who wants to do it instead of being assigned. This could probably be said of almost any church assignment.

Quote:

– they have a great ‘sports ministry’ program which is how we got involved with this church. Again, this is for all children in the community, not just members of their congregation. While there is a small fee for participation, it mostly covers building maintenance and uniforms – the coaches and refs are all volunteers. And it’s a really well-run program – there has not been one single brawl on the court that I’ve seen. (And unlike Church ball, it’s for girls, too.)

Our local Nazarene Church is a very large building with a full gym similar to ours. Square footage wise their building is larger than our stake center. Their parking lot is full on Sundays (they have a choice of two service times) and most week nights – their youth programs are top notch and most of the kids at my son’s high school who attend church go there because of their programs. ‘nuf said.

Quote:

– from what I can tell, members of this congregation actually look forward to going to church. I can’t even remember the last time I enjoyed that three hours we spend in church every Sunday. Probably not since I was in the singles ward.

Do you think that the Mormon church will ever let go of the idea that since we have prophetic revelation, the way we do everything, down to the 3 hour block, must be right and good? Do you think there are things we can learn from the practices of other churches? What would you implement or change if you could?

I clearly think there are things we can learn, and not just in the way we do things but doctrinally as well. If you look closely and read things like RSR you’ll discover almost everything is borrowed anyway – JS mostly just mashed stuff together differently. Change is either slow or non-existent, though. I don’t see any major shifts toward the way other churches do things in the foreseeable future but I hope I’m wrong.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

There are definitely things the LDS church could do to be more accommodating and make wanting to attend church less of a chore.

Joni wrote:

– their actual worship service is only about an hour long (no 3 hour block here haha) and you get to choose what time you attend because there are a few staggered throughout the day

I would love to see a worship service an hour long (10 minutes shorter than now) with perhaps only two speakers limited to about 15 minutes each. More (worshipful) music would be nice. In a two hour block where SS is optional this would be ideal for me. I think there is some support for this in the upper levels but the problem is the sacred cows of PH/RS or SS – cutting either one is going to tee off a sizable part of the population (but for the life of me I can’t figure out why).

Quote:

– they allow for fellowshipping. (We were recently reminded by our bishop to go promptly to SS, it’s a problem where people are chatting in the halls after SM.)

Linger longer? I’ve been there three hours spending most of it being bored and it’s 1:00. I want to go home. Again, a shorter block would improve that situation for me.

Quote:

– they have small, independent Bible study groups so you can choose how you want to learn about the scriptures. You can spend the whole year just on the Four Gospels if you want. You can actually go into deep doctrine if you want because you don’t have 48 1-hour lessons to get through the entire NT because next year we have to move on to something else.

Great idea. This could actually work in our church if we weren’t so stuck to the schedule and the way things are “supposed to be.” You could still have a class for investigators/new members and a class for those that really don’t care to think and want to be told what to believe. In my ward we have enough thoughtful and faithful individuals that we could have a couple of groups where we could just discuss the scriptures (kind of book club style) without a prescribed lesson manual and schedule. I’m sure not every ward is like that.

Trying to address these issues could be so worth it. I know they’re on their minds, but nothing ever happens. I was shocked when Nibbler said we’ve had the block since 1980. I was a lot younger. Now I’m fifty-some years old and I want to have some flexibility in how I spend my time in the church building.

(Personally, I really like that our congregations are geographically determined. There will always be some who can or should attend out of their boundaries, but I think the set-up serves us well for the most part. I think we work to all get along and understand each other.)

Oh, and more attention and autonomy for music. Some people don’t care at all, but for many it’s a make or break factor in their experience. And over time bad music takes a toll. I used to scoff at people of other faiths who chose congregations for music, but now I kind of get it.

[Anonymous]

I don’t want to totally hijack the thread and turn it into a shorter block discussion, but we just had a couple return from a mission in a small branch that was part of a mission district. In their branch they said they did a two hour block, regular SM and 40 minutes of a sort of mix of SS/PH/RS (although they were usually combined). I want to talk to them more about it. The branch had a regular attendance of about 30.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I believe our church looks at that process as being tossed about by every wind of doctrine, which is frowned on for obvious reasons. I believe the argument is that under that system people, not god, are running the show. I don’t think introducing choice of which ward people attend would ever fly but it would certainly shake things up.

Oh, that’s definitely what we would say (with maybe a touch of moral superiority). And yet… our church operates the same way, we’re just less transparent about it. The press release that came out when women were added to the governing committees of the church alluded to the fact that there are lots of other committees, some of which already included women… but we don’t know who is on those committees or what they do or even what they are called. God may well be in charge of this church, but He is not the one writing Gospel Doctrine manuals or deciding whether or not to partner with the BSA or authoring the Gospel Topics essays. That is almost entirely done anonymously and behind closed doors, but it’s done by committee, not revelation. So we’re more like mainstream Christianity than it seems at first blush – yet the average Mormon, I think, would be uncomfortable with that idea.

Quote:

There is certainly something to be said for the youth SS or Primary teacher or Scoutmaster who wants to do it instead of being assigned. This could probably be said of almost any church assignment.

I think the “serve where we tell you” model is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, you get individuals out of their comfort zone, and you avoid the Same Ten People problem. On the other hand, just because someone is a good person and holds a testimony doesn’t mean he or she is in ANY way qualified to be a Gospel Doctrine teacher. And when GD lessons are dull and uninspiring, doesn’t the whole congregation suffer?

It gets particularly bizarre when it comes to the Boy Scouts. We don’t even pretend that the BSA is an organization created by God, yet God apparently has an opinion in who the Scoutmaster should be? But why would He? :wtf:

I do think the LDS Church is gradually chipping away at the top-down, one-size-fits all approach but I think it’s going to be too little, too late. For example: My ward finally had the ‘keeping the sabbath day holy’ training that was going around this summer. (We had a temple dedication in August and haven’t had a 5th Sunday since then.) Now, it’s my understanding that this push was instituted largely to concerns with retention among teens and young adults. Get the parents to keep the Sabbath day holy, you keep the kids, right? (It doesn’t make a ton of logical sense to me but there you go.) So, we had a 5th Sunday meeting last week, and during the third hour all the youth and adults were ushered into the chapel for this lesson.

And… it sucked.

The lesson material was presented in a dry, monotone lesson format. A few class members had been selected beforehand to give responses to questions, but at no point did the teacher open up the floor for discussion. At no point did he ask any questions of the youth or attempt to engage them in any way. I normally serve in YW, so I know the girls pretty well… I was looking around the room, and I could tell that every single one of them had just checked. out. So, the church is aware that retention is a problem, especially with the Millenials, but is doubling down the answer? Is boring them silly in a 3-hour block the answer? I don’t think so. I think the youth have a much lower threshold for boredom than the adults do, but the church moves at a glacial pace, and that’s just not going to work for them.

Quote:

Oh, and more attention and autonomy for music. Some people don’t care at all, but for many it’s a make or break factor in their experience. And over time bad music takes a toll. I used to scoff at people of other faiths who chose congregations for music, but now I kind of get it.

Wait… you mean singing ‘In Our Lovely Deseret’ at funeral dirge pace DOESN’T make you excited for church??

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

I would love to see a worship service an hour long (10 minutes shorter than now) with perhaps only two speakers limited to about 15 minutes each.

At the Methodist church I attended growing up, there was a 35 minute block for whatever, not counting announcements, regular hymns and congregational prayer. It might be all sermon, it might be a short sermon and a guest speaker, or there could be an extra choral number tossed in there. Definitely better than having three people mumble their way through three different magazine articles.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

There is certainly something to be said for the youth SS or Primary teacher or Scoutmaster who wants to do it instead of being assigned. This could probably be said of almost any church assignment.

I’d be remiss if I didn’t share a motivational poster from the same show that my avatar is from:

[img]http://ecomodder.com/forum/member-cfg83-albums-shtuff+04-picture2486-you-gotta-do-what-you-gotta-do.jpg[/img]

You gotta do what you gotta do, it’s the law. And look at that enthusiasm.

I’ve had a few experiences where I got that phone call and I knew it was a new calling. What’s it going to be, what’s it going to be? A solid week of anticipation. I finally sit down for the big reveal. You are called to be [something unexpected]. Shoulders slump. You gotta do what you gotta do. :thumbup:

[Anonymous]

NightSG wrote:

DarkJedi wrote:

I would love to see a worship service an hour long (10 minutes shorter than now) with perhaps only two speakers limited to about 15 minutes each.

At the Methodist church I attended growing up, there was a 35 minute block for whatever, not counting announcements, regular hymns and congregational prayer. It might be all sermon, it might be a short sermon and a guest speaker, or there could be an extra choral number tossed in there. Definitely better than having three people mumble their way through three different magazine articles.

Or better yet, having three people mumble their way through the same magazine article.

[Anonymous]

You have some very good points Joni.

I suppose I view this as competing paradigms. The paradigm of good vs. the paradigm of right.

I once heard a pastor say that he wanted to build an environment where people would want to spend time even if they were not on board with the doctrine. In his mind, given enough time most of the doctrinal disagreements would work themselves out or perhaps were not very important to begin with. I might call this the paradigm of good.

In the LDS church I believe that the emphasis is placed on the doctrine. It is the doctrine that is true and right. It is the doctrine that gives us exclusive priesthood ordinances. It is the doctrine that provides a path of endurance (“endure to the end”) that leads to exaltation. I might call this the paradigm of right. If the doctrine is true then it would be worth bearing all manner of hardships to attain it.

neither paradigm is better and some people might be better served by one over another.

[Anonymous]

Joni wrote:

… yet God apparently has an opinion in who the Scoutmaster should be? But why would He? :wtf:

I assumed almost decade of being a scoutmaster was retribution for all of my sins, but I think after about year 6 my account was in balance. I guess I had to do it until I could hardly stand another campout. My wife said that scouting took away my love of camping and she isn’t happy about not camping much anymore.

[Anonymous]

Joni wrote:

NightSG wrote:

DarkJedi wrote:

I would love to see a worship service an hour long (10 minutes shorter than now) with perhaps only two speakers limited to about 15 minutes each.

At the Methodist church I attended growing up, there was a 35 minute block for whatever, not counting announcements, regular hymns and congregational prayer. It might be all sermon, it might be a short sermon and a guest speaker, or there could be an extra choral number tossed in there. Definitely better than having three people mumble their way through three different magazine articles.

Or better yet, having three people mumble their way through the same magazine article.

Never heard more than two in a row, though I did take the opportunity to point out to a member of the bishopric that if some of the members could get some parenting classes, maybe the second speaker would have heard the first speaker and flipped to a different article. (And no, it’s not the infants that are such a problem, it’s the 4 and older ones who should have learned at the very least how to not yell for an hour.)

[Anonymous]

nibbler wrote:

You gotta do what you gotta do, it’s the law. And look at that enthusiasm.

I’ve had a few experiences where I got that phone call and I knew it was a new calling. What’s it going to be, what’s it going to be? A solid week of anticipation. I finally sit down for the big reveal. You are called to be [something unexpected]. Shoulders slump. You gotta do what you gotta do. :thumbup:

I think there should be a rule that you are allowed to turn down any teaching calling, no questions asked. Double especially for any Primary calling. Kids deserve way better than to be taught by adults who don’t want to be there and are only participating out of guilt. And kids are definitely smart enough to pick up on stuff like that.

Quote:

Never heard more than two in a row, though I did take the opportunity to point out to a member of the bishopric that if some of the members could get some parenting classes, maybe the second speaker would have heard the first speaker and flipped to a different article. (And no, it’s not the infants that are such a problem, it’s the 4 and older ones who should have learned at the very least how to not yell for an hour.)

Some churches have nurseries that run concurrently with their main worship service, neatly eliminating the problem of kids screaming when adults are trying to listen. Of course then you have the problem of when do the nursery workers get to go to church (but again, many churches have 2 or 3 worship services on Sunday. So you can volunteer with the kids at 10 and then go hear a sermon at 12. Assuming you passed your background check. ) Sacrament meeting is very much [not] designed to meet the needs of small children and we’ve never really tried to fix that. Parents of young children are just expected to keep their kids quiet, even if SM is in the middle of nap time, even if it means the parents + anyone else in a 3 pew radius doesn’t get anything out of SM.

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