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Fwiw, the concept of guardian angels has a long and glorious tradition. It really isn’t all that different, conceptually, than our standard belief in the Holy Ghost. You know I have gone back and forth on this subject, a lot personally. I did think also as wayferer that the Holy Spirit, may just be our own personalized personage assigned to us. It does make sense in one way. Just scholarly evidence, and this idea of celestial marriage, and that Spirit is matter, and a finer purer matter then we can discern in this mortal state (Doctrine and Covenants, forget the section, probably around sections 80-100, something like that, and I’m alas too lazy to look it up), and other questions and personal revelation I have recieved, and that long time ago jewish mystics believed it, and its still a belief among some of the population, It stands out to me as just the best conclusion. Though I can see where some people may get comfort from the Holy Spirit not having any gender assigned to it, being sort of the hand of God stretch out to comfort us and guide us (as many churches already believe). I do understand that. Though to me If I wasn’t gendered in Heaven, then nothing in the church makes sense. If there is no gender to the Holy Spirit to me, well then personally there is no gender to God and then the only person who comes gendered in reality is Christ, and he was male. I may as well join the Catholic Church in that instance (and sometimes its tempting, at least I would get to pray to christ through female saints).
hmm, I like that, actually. And if it is a Woman’s repsonsiblity to teach and lead her children, then why wouldn’t the Head Holy Spirit be female, in connection with our Mother in Heaven, and lead the spirit children, to help comfort, protect (and I’ve been protected by the Holy Spirit), sanctify, and reveal the mysteries of the kin-dom? Yeah, okay that is another reason. I am quite okay with having guardian angels in connection with the office of the Holy Spirit.
Again, that is my personal belief. And on the off chance somebody agrees with me, great. If not I’m okay with that. I like this conversation though. Its interesting to move into the realm of speculative theology. I think revelation comes this way too.
I respect that wonderingcurrent. This comment made me chuckle, because, well..yeah.
wonderingcurrent wrote:..Though to me If I wasn’t gendered in Heaven,
then nothing in the church makes sense.If there is no gender to the Holy Spirit to me, well then personally there is no gender to Godand then the only person who comes gendered in reality is Christ, and he was male. …. It is an unfortunate fact that all of our scripture comes from times where women had little, if any, rights. In many countries, still, you are basically owned by your husband. The world is changing, but I am sure not fast enough for many. I think there will come a time where women play a larger role in church leadership. I don’t know if we can change the scriptures, however, as they already have gender bias from past era. Mormonism has two really cool elements that related to this question: 1. A strongly implied possibility of the divine feminine.
That is almost totally lacking in most other Christian faiths, except perhaps the strong theme of Virgin Mary veneration in Catholicism. Mormonism has a need, a hole in our theology, that demands a female God/god. On the flip side, we haven’t yet gone past the speculation process in defining it. So it is
ALLspeculation, even if the source we are exploring has the title “prophet” or “apostle.” They are speculating too. 2. We have a strong tradition of theological speculation.
Good news! We should “follow the prophet” and do this ourselves, searching and seeking for personal enlightenment (revelation) through the Holy Spirit. If any of us lacks wisdom, let us ask of God. We have this freedom within Mormonism. We might choose to look back to prominent leaders of the past to see how they worked with these ideas. I think that has a lot of value. It’s just fine to utilize the efforts and faith of others, and to benefit from their wisdom and insights. But in the end, we have to keep in mind that they were also groping in the dark on many (most) issues no matter what their title. The primary path to exaltation is direct revelation to us from God, the author of Eternal Life.
Just one logical question comes to my mind: If the Prophets are groping in the dark, does that mean they haven’t really asked any questions on this subject past “Does she exist? And another logical question too: Well then if Prophets and Apostles are supposed to talk to the Lord and learn his will, have they even learned his will on this?
And one more: Then if prophets and apostles are in the dark, and the whole world wide church is just speculating, then can we say we even have a right to revleation as a church, because surely we are not getting that revelation?
And of course: What is personal revelation going to do if there is a cultural taboo against sharing it? Joseph Smith himself said that a righteous man won’t be content with just taking care of his family but the whole world. I see truth in that statement more and more. I am not just content in recieving personal revelation. But I want to teach it, and am barred culturally from doing so, and would ge excommunicated faster then you can say macaroni and cheese for doing so. And probably be accused of multiple things including insubordination (as if we are in the military and I have just gone awry from the command structure).
ah…sigh
Yeah. It can be frustrating. Symbolically, 4 is the number of the earth. Scripture has many references to ‘4 angels over the 4 parts of the earth’, etc. Every day there is a program called “news”, or what’s going on around you north, east, west, and south. Temple symbolism is often depicted as a circle, (eternity), within a square, (the earth). God is very choosy about what He uses in symbolic representation. I have that this is one thing that is a constant in all scripture.
wonderingcurrent wrote:
And one more: Then if prophets and apostles are in the dark, and the whole world wide church is just speculating, then can we say we even have a right to revleation as a church, because surely we are not getting that revelation?
It took 140 years for them to finally ask if blacks could get the Priesthood. Don’t expect them to run asking for answers they aren’t ready to receive.
wonderingcurrent wrote:And one more: Then if prophets and apostles are in the dark, and the whole world wide church is just speculating, then can we say we even have a right to revleation as a church, because surely we are not getting that revelation?
I personally don’t believe the prophets and apostles are in the dark or groping about everything. There are just some topics that haven’t been clarified with revelation yet, so those we are all allowed to speculate, and no one can tell you your speculation is wrong, until the revelation does come from the prophet.
Because little has been taught of my Heavenly Mother, I enjoy a wide open view of worshipping her according to the dictates of my own conscience, and allow others the same.
I’m not sure I see revelation as a right the Church has. But I believe when God chooses to give it, it comes…and has in the past, and will continue in the future…but not on our timetable. So, I adjust expectations accordingly.
onahighnote wrote:Symbolically, 4 is the number of the earth. Scripture has many references to ‘4 angels over the 4 parts of the earth’, etc. Every day there is a program called “news”, or what’s going on around you north, east, west, and south. Temple symbolism is often depicted as a circle, (eternity), within a square, (the earth).
God is very choosy about what He uses in symbolic representation. I have that this is one thing that is a constant in all scripture.
OHN…Brian started a nice thread many moons ago about symbolism you may enjoy reading…Squaring the Circle…http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=570http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=570” class=”bbcode_url”> I also enjoy the way symbolism can provide deeper meanings and over long periods of time, become more meaningful in different ways.
I took that link, then linked to wikipedia, and I got even more of a headache. I can’t really understand the whole squaring the circle, so if you would explain it, in a nutshell, that will be helpful.
Other then that, the administration can lock this thread if they want.
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