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A home teacher in a ward in Nevada has been shot – Fallon 3rd ward? Can’t find out many details, but if you go on Leslie Beach’s profile on Facebook there are some details. Her church was on lock down last night. I was in a ward recently where they locked the outside doors after meetings started and assigned ushers to let people in. I inquired as to why and an usher told me they had had a couple instances where people had come in and been disruptive, one of which was a domestic dispute. Of course the ushers were quite busy with latecomers for the first 15 minutes or so. In this case I’m not sure it would have solved anything because it sounds like the guy was already in the building and was a member and even if he wasn’t already inside the usher probably would have let him in. https://www.deseret.com/2018/7/23/20649571/lds-shooting-witness-people-were-screaming-and-hitting-the-ground ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.deseret.com/2018/7/23/20649571/lds-shooting-witness-people-were-screaming-and-hitting-the-ground At some point doesn’t the Church have to address safety concerns at church? Shootings at public venues are becoming a “normal” event &
no onewants to present a solution. At what point will it affect attendance on Sunday & the rest of the week?
Minyan Man wrote:
At some point doesn’t the Church have to address safety concerns at church?Shootings at public venues are becoming a “normal” event &
no onewants to present a solution. At what point will it affect attendance on Sunday & the rest of the week?
I don’t know the solution. What do we do, put metal detectors at the door? In this particular case, it appears to be a matter of personal vengeance where the alleged perpetrator knew where his victim would likely be at that time. It would be no different than if he knew the guy went to a certain restaurant for breakfast every day – he just sought out the guy. And, since they were both apparently active members they both seemed to belong there. I think the bigger concern is the more well known cases of mass shootings at church which are IMO acts of terrorism (the use of violence or threat of violence in the pursuit of political, religious, ideological or social objectives). But again, what do we do? Airport type screening to attend sacrament meeting?
There is something called security theater. This is where a business or organization takes a step that is shown to be doing something, makes the public feel safer, and may serve as a mild deterrent for bad guys without actually creating hard barriers to gun violence. DJ I know of several churches (LDS and non) doing what you described with the ushers. IMO it is a form of security theater.
What I would like to see is a commercial background check performed for those individuals assigned to work with children. I know background checks are not a panacea but they are standard in many church and youth organizations and I believe the church could be exposed if something terrible happened.
I would also be interested in some type of check-in and check-out system when you drop your kids off at primary. Could the church be held liable if a child wandered off and went missing or was picked up by a stranger or non-custodial parent?
I agree with the security theater idea. Schools have been doing this for a couple decades (most since Columbine) but we still have school shootings. In the case of the ushers/locked doors it won’t deter everyone – people come in before the door is locked and the ushers seemed to let anyone in (but admittedly I don’t know who they knew and who they didn’t know). It’s not totally related but I also agree with the background check for Primary and youth callings. The church is letting itself be very vulnerable in this case. Our ward (and I think every ward in our stake) does have a Primary drop and pick up policy. Kids are not released until a parent (not an older sibling) comes. Sometimes that’s an issue for Primary workers who are left waiting for said parents to show a half hour after church ends (some workers have been known to seek out the parents, kids in tow). And, I have seen the parent pick up the kid and literally 5 seconds later turn them loose while the parents go and socialize. But at least we try.
Quote:Could the church be held liable if a child wandered off and went missing or was picked up by a stranger or non-custodial parent?
No doubt. It’s a crisis (or multiple crises) waiting to happen.
I will also add that while the bishop’s interview thing got all the press, part of that policy change also requires two deep teachers in every classroom for children and youth and that’s been (I believe) widely overlooked. I asked recently if this policy also applies to early morning seminary and was answered emphatically “yes.”
Roy wrote:
There is something called security theater. This is where a business or organization takes a step that is shown to be doing something, makes the public feel safer, and may serve as a mild deterrent for bad guys without actually creating hard barriers to gun violence.
The truth is, those solutions really are “theater”. They do very little to protect or deter. Taking the TSA for example, they’ve had a failure rate of detecting weapons in their tests 70% of the time (which is up from the 95% failure rate reported several years ago). Having increased security is expensive, inconvenient (forgot something in the car?), and doesn’t do much to help the issue.
Minyan Man wrote:
Shootings at public venues are becoming a “normal” event…
I disagree, that they’ve been “normalized”, but they have become more frequent. But even if on the surface, they seem politically, religiously, ideologically motivated, they’re really not. No one says, “That guy who shot up that ______ full of people had some really good points”, unless they’re already derranged AND already agreed with them to begin with. It’s really not furthering any cause. They do it, because it’ll get them national attention. Shootings are the BIGGEST money makers for big media. Shooters give the media what they want, and the media gives the shooters what they want (coverage). Calling attention to it, increasing security “theater”, etc are only going to make the problem worse.
Do you know what would really solve the shooting “epidimic”? Stop talking about it. Don’t change your behavior because of it. That’s what the bad guys want, and f— those guys. Instead of wasting money on a security system, throw a ward barbeque. Get back to living.
There was a story years ago about a man who came to a chapel. Asked for someone in authority and a Bishop came out to see him. The man shot the Bishop leaving behind the mother and 8 children. I sure hope the church ponied up with some kind of lifetime support payments for the woman and her children. Minyan Man wrote:
At some point doesn’t the Church have to address safety concerns at church?Shootings at public venues are becoming a “normal” event &
no onewants to present a solution. At what point will it affect attendance on Sunday & the rest of the week?
I brought this matter up with ny bishopric after the Florida carry on.
My stake did have a 5th Sunday lesson on what to do. It was given by an FBI agent and was mainly material from the FBI. It was simple stuff like your first priority is run like hell (not the exact words), if you can’t then hide or gather where you can block entrance, and if you have to confront then do so as a group and everyone needs to pounce all at once. Kind of common sense. The one thing that I think they did bring up that was good is that most people when they first hear what sounds like gunfire they usually kind of freeze. They don’t start taking action and instead they are confused and second guess if it was a shot or not. They recommended if it sounds like it at all, don’t second guess. Get out and if it is a false alarm it isn’t that big of a deal. Minyan Man wrote:
At some point doesn’t the Church have to address safety concerns at church?Shootings at public venues are becoming a “normal” event &
no onewants to present a solution. At what point will it affect attendance on Sunday & the rest of the week?
This kind of thing is awful, and, of course, my heart goes out to the victims/families. I wish we lived in a word that acted more like the highest of our ideals as humans.That said, just be aware that we tend to be very out-of-scale in our perception of public dangers from this kind of violence. How many people attended LDS services on Sunday in Nevada, and what percentage of them were shot?
If you take another infamous Nevada incident from 2017, there were 58 people killed (not counting the perpetrator) in the LV shooting last October. It was shocking, of course, and infuriating that a person would do this to other people. But keep in mind that 405 people died last year in traffic incidents in Nevada. It’s just that that doesn’t make headlines.
I’d rather not have to go through ‘security’ in order to walk into my local Church. I’ve pretty much stopped watching the news specifically because of my distaste for being inundated by this kind of information by commercial enterprises whose profit is tied to shock and angst. Life is getting shorter for me all the time and I’m not going to spend the rest of my life wringing my hands.
Our ward (and I think every ward in our stake) does have a Primary drop and pick up policy. Kids are not released until a parent (not an older sibling) comes. Sometimes that’s an issue for Primary workers who are left waiting for said parents to show a half hour after church ends (some workers have been known to seek out the parents, kids in tow). That is wonderful. I personally wonder if the adult classes might be let out 5 or 10 minutes earlier giving parents more time to pick up their kids before the primary teachers get exasperated. We do not do this in my ward. Sometimes primary lets out early and the kids will be running down the hall to find their parents while those parents are still in class.
DarkJedi wrote:
I will also add that while the bishop’s interview thing got all the press, part of that policy change also requires two deep teachers in every classroom for children and youth and that’s been (I believe) widely overlooked. I asked recently if this policy also applies to early morning seminary and was answered emphatically “yes.”
Wow, This is the first time I have heard of that. This also appears to not yet have been implemented in my ward. I applaud the change.
:clap: I personally like the examples Sambee & LookingHard posted. I am not suggesting “airport” type security. I do think it is a topic that every ward & stake should address to some degree. Attached is a link that documents mass shootings
in the US through Jun 28 2018.
https://www.businessinsider.com/how-many-mass-shootings-in-america-this-year-2018-2 It isn’t presented for shock value only to show that it is a significant issue. (IMO)
I did email our EQ President & he will be talking to our Bishop about it.
I agree that a training to go over the “Run. Hide. Fight.” response to an active shooter event would be time well spent. Roy wrote:
I agree that a training to go over the “Run. Hide. Fight.” response to an active shooter event would be time well spent.
We have a guy in our ward who works for the FBI. After the mass shooting in Las Vegas last October, our bishopric called a combined RS/Priesthood meeting and had him talk about “Run, Hide, Fight,” and general tips for staying safe at large events and in public places in case of an active shooter. It would be great if the church would have ask more guys who work in law enforcement to hold special firesides like this for entire stakes.
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