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swimordie wrote:George wrote:
What bothers me with such a stance is the reality we should consider encouraging our same-gender attracted children to leave early, for their emotional and spiritual health. At what age then do we become involved, 12, 15, 19 (certainly before a mission I would think)?
Fascinating article in Sunday’s NYT Magazine about middle-schoolers dealing with SSA. This article will REALLY make you think, regardless your perspective on the topic:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/magazine/27out-t.html?_r=1&ref=magazine Thank you swimordie. The article brings hope to young lives. Both my brothers said they knew from about the age of six or seven, that they were different. By twelve they had no doubt where their gender attraction was. The same with my son. Have I mentioned that my father had three brothers who never married? We were not privileged to know why (it was a closeted generation). In fact, Dad didn’t marry till his 40’s. He never really explained why either.
It appears that this long thread has reached its end (as all popular threads eventually do). There is a postscript I’m like to add. I’ve been thinking about it for a day or two, but couldn’t decide if it was perhaps off subject (well sort of). From my comments at other places in this website, many know I’m of Native American heritage. Dad was white, but mom was Muscogee (Creek) and I hold citizenship there. When the French first came to Canada they found that some Indian men lived differently, in they worked at what was considered women’s duties (gender accepted divisions of labor). The French called them a nasty name. But in reality, nearly all Native tribes gave very special recognition to gay/lesbian people. They were considered exceptional as they were of “two spirits.” Given a special status with their tribes, they were also healers & advice counselors (especially for young men having trouble with girl friends). The custom was very common in Southwestern tribes also. I observed a couple of practitioners among the Navajo while on my mission half a century ago.
It took several hundred years, but eventually Native tribes were taught homophobia as a cultural value from the white man, especially by his various churches. I wonder if Native people had continued their own religions, if there might be less hating and more love on our reservations today. I know there would be less poverty. Thanks for taking the time to read this.
Thanks, George. I always appreciate your cultural insights. My friend from Denmark just gave me this link that is appropriate here. Watch the utube and tell me what you think. This was so my son. Also notice the commentary and how hateful some lds members can be to gays. Whoops…here’s the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJQ63PafHD4 Thanks, Bridge This quote is from Gene Hillman,
In the context it was spoken Fox admonished us to “walk cheerfully over the world, answering that of God in everyone” he wasn’t simply asserting that of God. That didn’t set us off from others of his day or ours. He was telling us to answer [address] that of God rather than the evil. By answering that of God we will elicit and strengthen it. If we give our attention to the evil, it is the evil we will strengthen (ask any practitioner of aikido, judo, or taichi about directly opposing a force). The power in the admonition to answer that of God in others is that it requires a response from us.
Gene Hillman was once asked why he taught the gospel to men in prison. He answered that “there was a little of God in each of this” and that we should address or speak to the “God within” rather than speak to the evil within. He said that when you “speak to the God within”, the God within will listen and answer. This is how he has managed to convert and rehabilitate so many men in prison. As I read the NT, I see that this was also Christ’s style of teaching and why he was willing to spend so much of His mortal ministry with sinners.
Hillman believes that when we address the evil in men, the evil answers. We find the evil, point out the faults of men and speak directly to their darker nature. As in the art of taichi, when you challenge your opponent, who strengthen him. He rises to match you in skill, style and strength. I actually saw this happen in the recent Equality fight in Maine. Those who wanted marriage equality carefully studied the LDS Church. They spent hours researching how the Church helped with Proposition 8 in California. They raised massive amounts of money because they told people that the LDS Church could quickly raise funds and so they would also need to be able to raise matching funds. Donations poured in. The used the exact same Public Relations Type firms that the LDS Church used and the same type of commercials. You see, it is just like in Taichi – who we oppose we strengthen.
bridget_night wrote:My friend from Denmark just gave me this link that is appropriate here. Watch the utube and tell me what you think. This was so my son. Also notice the commentary and how hateful some lds members can be to gays.
Wow! I know Cody’s dad! Really! I’m gona call him (I haven’t seen him in 10 years….)
Yes, that was beautiful…and so great to see how his parents took it. Knowing “dad,” I’m sure he is a loving father first, Mormon second. I would have been surprised if he would have done anything different.
Thanks Bridget for posting this!
Wallace, great thoughts you posted and I agree. Rix, that is so cool that you know him. Let us know if you contact him. Did either of you read any of the comments, especially by this one older guy who was in the military. It was so awful. Thanks Bridge, I have always believed that we should be lead by faith, not fear. I recall the scriptures that those of us who will meet Christ are those who, “overcome by faith”, notice that it is not those who “were overcome by fear”. To me, faith is the antithesis of fear.
I was speaking to my oldest daughter who has suffered from anorexia and bipolar disorder since she was 14 years old. She has also suffered from some neurological disorders which run in our family. I myself have suffered from epilepsy (severe grand mal seizures) and my daughter just shakes. I know that some times after a severe seizure, I was afraid to go out of the house, get on the bus, go to my job (I worked as a microbiologist) or go to school (I studied clinical laboratory science). I always felt the Lord telling me to have faith, not fear.
My oldest daughter spent many years in therapy learning how to cope. She said that homophobia is just like any other fear, it can be overcome and conquered with faith.
The word “phobia” means fear – the opposite of faith. The commandment to “fear not” is one of my favorite commandments – I vow to fear only God. It sure beats the anxiety, helplessness and depression that take over when we fear men, medical conditions and even sexual orientation.
So, the way forward is through faith, not fear, love, not hate, truth, not lies. This is how the pioneers crossed the plains. It is our faith that will make us whole.
PLEASE, don’t read this as anything other than the parsed meaning of the words I’m going to choose:Let’s be very careful not to classify all difficulties accepting homosexuality as homophobia. They aren’t. I have certain reservations about a “full embrace” of all homosexual activity, even if gay marriage is adopted as the law of the land, and those reservations have nothing to do with fear.
We can discuss this issue in great detail and with passion, and I have NO problem with a proper identification of homophobia – but I hear WAY too many people use that classification as a way to ignore all perspectives with which they disagree, and I don’t want that happening here.
I’m NOT saying it is happening; I’m just asking everyone to be careful it doesn’t.
Hi Ray, Just to make myself clear, there is a real, tangible difference between living and teaching the law of chastity in its entirety and homophobia. The law of chastity teaches and develops faith in God by adherence to His commandments. Blessings pour in when we obey the law of chastity. We are able to fully develop ourselves and our personal relationships. Our families are secured and strengthened. Children are nurtured within loving families, not created then, aborted or abandoned. People can live free of deadly diseases such as HIV. The list goes on an on.
But there is a vast and enormous difference between living and teaching the law of chastity, preserving and protecting the sanctity of marriage and homophobia. Homophobia is literally “fear of homosexual persons”. It also encompasses fear of those born with certain genetic conditions such as Klinefelter’s Syndrome, Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, 5 Alpha Reducase Deficiency, Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia and 17-beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase deficiency . It is the fear that giving persons born with disorders of sexual development and differentiation civil rights will lead to the downfall of men. California Proposition 8 denied marriage rights to hundreds of individuals born with these syndromes. There is NO scriptural support anywhere in the OT the NT, BofM or DandC that justifies this. None. This is simply a fear or phobia of persons who are born different. Like all fears, it can be overcome through education, knowledge and faith.
MWallace57 wrote:This is simply a fear or phobia of persons who are born different. Like all fears, it can be overcome through education, knowledge and faith.
THAT about says it all! I will add that along with what MWallace said, interaction and association with these valid, wonderful people will also help us get past true homophobia. When we view them as sinners, we subconsciously avoid them.
That isn’t love.
Quote:When we view them as sinners, we subconsciously avoid them.
I would say we avoid them when we stop seeing ourselves as sinners, also.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:When we view them as sinners, we subconsciously avoid them.
I would say we avoid them when we stop seeing ourselves as sinners, also.
Exactly! Unfortunately there is far too much condescension when we “meet” those different than we are.
Old-Timer wrote:Let’s be very careful not to classify all difficulties accepting homosexuality as homophobia. They aren’t. I have certain reservations about a “full embrace” of all homosexual activity, even if gay marriage is adopted as the law of the land, and those reservations have nothing to do with fear.We can discuss this issue in great detail and with passion, and I have NO problem with a proper identification of homophobia – but I hear WAY too many people use that classification as a way to ignore all perspectives with which they disagree, and I don’t want that happening here.
Ray, I appreciate this idea because I see it all the time that if you do not accept every aspect of homosexuality, you are a homophobe. Right now I have been concerned because some of the people in Obama’s administration have been involved with Nambla. A Pedophile group and is accepting of teens and adults have sex. Also there is a great push to teach about homosexuality in elementary school right now to as young as 5 years old. Even my pro-gay Danish friends are against that and it is not allowed in Denmark. Too, many kids during those ages are going through the developmental stage where girls don’t like boys, and boys think girls have cooties. This is a stage where boys are making a statement of affirming their gender and saying, “I’m a boy, not a girl” and vice versa. If homosexuality is taught in elementary school, kids can become easily confused and think they might be gay and act on it, even if they are not. Here in Iowa, we do have gay marriage now and I am alright with that, but they also allow a transgender man to dress up like a woman and teach elementary school.
My gay son did not think of himself as gay or recognize he had a same-sex attraction until he was 16. But, when he was 11 and in 5th grade elementary school, Planned Parenthood came in and showed the kids how ‘gays’ do it during health class. My son and I had a discussion about that when he told me and I was very disturbed that Planned Parenthood or other groups like this were allowed to teach this in elementary school. The schools of course teach that promiscuity is fine, just use protection. Point being, that people like Poppyseed and I should not be seen as anti-gay or homophobes just because whe do not accept everything associated with homosexuality. I find extremists on both sides of this issue. I do have many friends who have been able to minimize their SSA and live happy heterosexual lives but they are treated horrible by pro-gay activists. Even though I am basically gay affirming, I believe in morality, and boundaries. Many pro-gay activists hate me and my book because I allow that change is possible for some and because I do not embrace everything activits want to push through the schools and society.
I do believe that gays should be allowed in the military, and I support the ‘hate crime’ bill against homosexuals. I also support teaching against bullying of gays and treating them good in the schools and the facts about homosexuality starting in Junior high.
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