"Homesexuals CAN Change..," A giant step backwards for the

[Anonymous]

I see value in all of the arguments here. The fundamentalist(non-literal) or OG(original gangsta) approach is to take the words of the scriptures, the prophets and of the church as law. Right and wrong is defined, and we are expected to obey with the thought that God has placed these laws for a reason that may not be understood right now. I think that stance is as difficult as any gay person trying to live an honest life, especially if one feels counter to that of the law.

But we should also keep in mind that the church has changed plenty of moral laws in their short history. So sure, there are no gray areas; until there is one.

In my opinion, you have to trust your gut, wherever that leads you. I feel really bad for a gay person in the church. I really wouldn’t expect them to stay, and I hope the church would understand. My cousin went inactive after he came out, but he still holds strong beliefs in the church. It’s a tough road.

[Anonymous]

MadamCurie, that’s precisely what I was saying.

[Anonymous]

I am in agreement with most of you considering this speech to be needlessly painful to our gay brothers and sisters. However I would point out that we are at exactly the same place as when considering Brigham Young’s Adam/God theory. This 70, General Authority though he is, IS NOT making a statement for the Church, we are getting his OPINION. One of my conclusions from the recent official announcements by the Church on gays including the new brochure is that the Church has decided that for many if not most gays change is not possible. Now their solution is not all that helpful as has been pointed out: lifelong celebiacy. Still I think we should NOT say the Church is taking a giant step backwards, yes the conference takes place in a Church building, yes they still seem to support Evergreen but this speech is still just this man’s opinion. We shouldn’t ignore it, we should be upset, I agree with all of your concerns, but until a new directive comes out in a letter to Bishops or new official literature I think the Church has accepted the fact that most gays are born that way and to try to change them is wrong.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

MadamCurie, that’s precisely what I was saying.

Perhaps, in time, the church could also be persuaded to acknowledge homosexual civil marriage, even if it does not allow them within temples.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

Frankly, this is one reason why I have NO problem with many homosexual members leaving the Church.

However, ultimately, the Church asks the same thing of single heterosexual members in this life – so, seriously, there isn’t any MORTAL discimination happening. It’s brutal on both orientations who don’t marry.

I remember as a red blooded, testosterone-filled late teenager, it was constantly on my mind that this whole sex urge WAS going to be possible, allowed, and even encouraged in the near future when I was to marry my lover. The hope and anticipation was magical.

That is not the case for our gay brothers and sisters in the church.

Now, I must apologize, particularly to Orson for probably not keeping with the mission of this site. Yes, I was quite upset when I read this article this morning…and let my fingers express it. My posts today were not very helpful for those trying to “Stay LDS.” Perhaps a way I can justify it is that we can, to a degree, express our real feelings here to many that understand — probably not a wise thing to do at church?! Thanks Orson for the gentle reminder.

I realize that the talk was one man’s opinion. But it was at a sanctioned event, spoken by a GA. For many, if not most, LDS members, the words spoken there are considered accurate LDS doctrine. To that extent, I believe it IS a step backwards for our culture. But how do I reconcile it? With my 51 years of experience, I do understand that ALL church leaders speak their opinion, the best they know how. I do believe they try to get their inspiration from above…as did the prophets when it was a challenge to address racial issues, and others. To that end, I have hope that they spend much time in prayer to receive the answers needed to bridge this gaping divide today.

And I will do the same to learn to accept and respect the diligent work they are doing daily.

[Anonymous]

I’m sure no one can possibly imagine that I have anything to say about this…. 😳 😳 😳

I’ll play contrarian a little. I WISH it was a step back for the church, that would mean there had been some progress. Prop 8 was a continuation of a fight the church picked in the early 90’s, the proclamation being the opening shot. There’s been some internal movement like giving up reparative therapy but the underlying thought process has not changed.

The bigger issues in the future are what are being damaged by the church’s stance. How to deal with gay marriage when it’s legal everywhere on earth? How to deal with the onslaught of gender identity issues as the psychiatric world is now? How about intersex children, which are being born at much greater rates? How about even stay-at-home dads? Cross-dressing at church?

I hate to sound any alarms but the current youth generation is very, very comfortable with all of the above. Are you? Are the GA’s?

We’ve had this discussion here in other places, but the ideals of gender roles from the victorian era are finally fading into oblivion. Everywhere but in orthodox religion (muslim, catholic, et al).

I don’t know if that’s good or bad, and I know there will always be a “normal” so that people can beat up those who don’t fit “it”. I’m not saying that from a bitter, judgmental place, I actually think a huge part of the human condition is enmity, “proving” one’s worth by comparing to the “other”.

As for stayingLDS, I found an unusually unique way to try it, and it just happened to be about this issue… only time will tell. 😳

[Anonymous]

I thought the jist of the OP was to say that it was a huge step backward for the church to say people can change. Isn’t this always the churches position no matter the issue? Isn’t this paradigm part of the joy of the church we love? Isn’t this part of the hope in Christ that we can change?

I have problems. I have pain. I have junk in my life that all will power and social pressure won’t change. I hate it. Want it gone! And the rest of you…..you are probly saying welcome to the party and quit your whining.

We can handle our problems from a place of personal accountability and self power OR we can blame others and wait and demand for the world to change to help us feel better.

Rix…..you say this is a damaging and hurtful message from the church. I guess I just don’t see it that way. I see that the church is trying to help empower people and give them hope. Not everyone wants this problem to dominate their lives. Not every SSA person wants to give in to the behavior. I would think for those people this message would be one of tremendous comfort. I really honestly think that the most painful messages are the ones we think in our own heads about our own stuff. We are the ones who choose how we feel about things….how we react to things. This may not be the message every SSA person wants to hear, but its a far cry from being deliberately hurtful.

[Anonymous]

There’s a rhetorical problem with what the church is “saying”: that “change” is the ideal. This is a lack of acceptance of homosexuality. Right now the church can hide behind the rhetoric of “it’s sin because you aren’t married”. But that is not feasible long term as gay marriage will eventually be legal everywhere. Then, it’s obvious that it’s not about “fornication” but rather homosexuality. Then the church is stuck with the “change” is the only way paradigm, which has been destructive at all levels in the past, as many evangelical religions went this way and discovered.

I agree that we all have to find our own way, individually. And, as Ray said, if that means that an individual who is homosexual needs to leave the church, so be it. But, at some point, most members will begin to recognize that this is not Christ’s way and find that exclusion as unacceptable. As many already do in their heart, just not out loud.

[Anonymous]

Poppyseed wrote:

Rix…..you say this is a damaging and hurtful message from the church. I guess I just don’t see it that way. I see that the church is trying to help empower people and give them hope. Not everyone wants this problem to dominate their lives. Not every SSA person wants to give in to the behavior. I would think for those people this message would be one of tremendous comfort.

I can appreciate this approach. We ALL can use a little more hope. But there is real hope and false hope…the question is which is this? Many years ago when I found my self addicted to pain meds, my bishop advised me to read the scriptures, pray more…and NOT to go through rehab. He felt (and promised) that was all the treatment I needed.

He was wrong. Of course there is a key spiritual component to recovery, but rehab was also key for me.

I see this issue also one of medical science. There is nothing wrong with giving LGBTs hope and empowerment, but even church leaders need to become educated about medicine. The best approach is to involve sound medical science and spiritual tools together. We understand from many years of research and science what causes homosexuality…and that for most, “change” is not possible. So to me, giving a talk saying it is, actually causes more false hope than positive hope. And recent history shows us this leads to much depression and suicide in our culture.

I DO appreciate the more common tone recently that many other church leaders have taken that it may not be possible to change. That is reality.

But again, keeping with the mission of this site, I can look at his talk as wrong in my mind, and understand that not everybody is educated in this area. He is doing the best he can with what he knows, and I respect him for his position.

[Anonymous]

Well, I appreciate what you are saying here Rix. About your bishop and about false hope. And even that you have an opinion that this dude is wrong.

I need more education and enlightenment on the matter. And science is good. It is a helpful piece to the puzzle but its not the only piece. It isn’t for addiction recovery or SSA and so many other things. Frankly, I need more than science can offer to help me sort out the truth from the rest on all these issues. I need earthy information and I need God’s brain. And I tend to think the people and the church and everyone needs that too.

[Anonymous]

Poppyseed wrote:

Well, I appreciate what you are saying here Rix. About your bishop and about false hope. And even that you have an opinion that this dude is wrong.

I need more education and enlightenment on the matter. And science is good. It is a helpful piece to the puzzle but its not the only piece. It isn’t for addiction recovery or SSA and so many other things. Frankly, I need more than science can offer to help me sort out the truth from the rest on all these issues. I need earthy information and I need God’s brain. And I tend to think the people and the church and everyone needs that too.

Well said…we could all use a bit more understanding about alotta things, huh?! I confess I’m a bit biased towards medical science considering my background…and there are so many that tend to slam medicine — that it isn’t always right. Of course there are mistakes and things we don’t know. But I’ll bet when you have a heart attack, or other life threatening event, the first place we go for help is to the doctor. We give our lives to them, and almost expect them to heal us. So I see this issue similar to a church leader (any church) saying to the members “don’t get this medical treatment, trust God to heal you.”

I think science was instrumental in bringing understanding to the church leaders wrt racial issues. There were many that really believed that certain races were in fact genetically inferior to others. When we came to understand this was false, intense prayer ensued to come to an understanding of what to teach and do. The revelation followed that confirmed what science had taught.

I think the church generally does a great job advising the members to follow good medical scientific advice…along with seeking spiritual assistance along the way. This makes perfect sense.

So I hope we can follow appropriate advice using all the tools available to us to make us healthy…that includes mental and emotional health as well as spiritual. It seems our complex and miraculous brain was given us by God…we ought to use it well!

[Anonymous]

This is a copy and paste from Evergreen International, the official organization who the Church contracts with to “treat” members with SSA:

Evergreen Response to APA Report

August 10, 2009

In light of the recent report titled “Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation” from the Society for the Psychological Study of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Issues to the American Psychological Association at their annual convention, Evergreen International reiterates its unwavering commitment to the doctrines and standards of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

We appreciate the report’s recognition of the centrality of religious faith in the lives of many individuals who may seek psychological care. Evergreen International urges counseling professionals to support Latter-day Saints who believe that sexual behavior is to be reserved for a marital relationship between one man and one woman, and understand that a foundational principle of Church doctrine is the belief that it is the responsibility and opportunity of every person to grow and change throughout their lifetime to become more like the Savior in every aspect of their being.

Evergreen International continues to teach this essential doctrine of growth and change, so we note with interest the study “Ex Gays? An Extended Longitudinal Study of Attempted Religiously Mediated Change in Sexual Orientation” released at a symposium at the same meeting of the American Psychological Association by psychologists Stanton L. Jones and Mark A. Yarhouse showing that sexual orientation change is not only possible, but sustainable.

END OF COPY AND PASTE:

Honestly, I do not have a problem with this. My objection has been that 1 out of 6 persons who “suffer” from SSA have an actual, biologically based, physiological condition. I am very concerned when untrained “professionals” attempt to diagnosis, prescribe treatment and give a prognosis without having all of the credentials.

Here is a list of why parents and Church Leaders need to have competent medical consultation before determining the cause of SSA:

Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (little boys born without testosterone receptors)

5 Alpha Reductase Deficiency (little boys that are missing an enzyme that converts testosterone to the biologically active steroid – dihyrotestosterone (DHT)

Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia in females (little girls born with external male genitalia because their adrenal glands produced large quantities of male sex hormones)

Klinefelter’s Syndrome – little boys born with an extra chromosome – XXY genotype

Sex Chromosome Mosiacs – some cells have XY, some body cells have XX

Prenatal Exposure to the powerful estrogen DES – 10 Million pregnant women given DES during pregnancy to help prevent miscarraige – (approximately 1 in 4 girls born with SSA)

Prenatal Exposure the Methamphetamine – Methamphetamine can cross the placenta, enter fetal brain and disrupt “Androgen Imprinting”, resulting in “sexual dypsphoria” – child not knowing what gender he or she truly is.

Prenatial Exposure to Thyroid Hormone Replacement Therapy (Mom’s with thyroid conditions)

and the list goes on and on and on

I have consistently seen member of the LDS Church who suffer from SSA who have NOT been properly diagnosed or treated. Some of these conditions, such as DES exposure can dramatically increase the risk of cancer – missing a diagnosis can be deadly. Bishops have referred patients who have suffered from prenatal exposure to Methamphetamine for treatment for SSA. These patients are then deprived of the care that they need. This is heartbreaking for me. Adult survivors of methamphetamine exposure can recover, but their recovery is very slow – Evergreen’s treatment programs are designed to work quickly. Patients that don’t progress rapidly become discouraged and even suicidal. Honestly, these little patients are frequently born premature, they suffer from developmental delays, the may have neurological problems, learning disabilities etc. They have often been in and out of foster care homes – one child had been in four foster care homes before he was 11. These young adults can have the emotional development of a 15 year old – all because of developmental delays. Some of these “fix it quick” outfits like Evergreen don’t even try to diagnose the problem and deal with all of the issues associated with the condition. They may not address the predisposition that the person has for developing drug addiction. They may not address abandonment issues, learning disabilities etc.

Yea, this Evergreen promises the world and the Church is sucked in, pays good money, keeps believing against evidence to the contrary and just flat out refuses to use scientifically validated methodologies. I have offered to assist the Church. They totally refuse my help, claiming they have their own people. Jon Huntsman Senior has offered to pay for medical services such as cancer screening – the Church doesn’t want his help. Former Governor Jon Huntsman has offered help via the University of Utah – the Church isn’t interested.

I just want to go on record the the LDS Church has been offered help by competent medical professionals – and they have chosen Evergreen. It is their choice, not mine.

[Anonymous]

MWallace57 wrote:

Here is a list of why parents and Church Leaders need to have competent medical consultation before determining the cause of SSA:

Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (little boys born without testosterone receptors)

5 Alpha Reductase Deficiency (little boys that are missing an enzyme that converts testosterone to the biologically active steroid – dihyrotestosterone (DHT)

Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia in females (little girls born with external male genitalia because their adrenal glands produced large quantities of male sex hormones)

Klinefelter’s Syndrome – little boys born with an extra chromosome – XXY genotype

Sex Chromosome Mosiacs – some cells have XY, some body cells have XX

Prenatal Exposure to the powerful estrogen DES – 10 Million pregnant women given DES during pregnancy to help prevent miscarraige – (approximately 1 in 4 girls born with SSA)

Prenatal Exposure the Methamphetamine – Methamphetamine can cross the placenta, enter fetal brain and disrupt “Androgen Imprinting”, resulting in “sexual dypsphoria” – child not knowing what gender he or she truly is.

Prenatial Exposure to Thyroid Hormone Replacement Therapy (Mom’s with thyroid conditions)

I think it is important not to confuse homosexuality with gender-identity issues, since they are not the same thing. Several of the above concern the latter, and not the former.

[Anonymous]

Thanks, Madam

The Church often refers to “Same Sex Attraction”. This is what was referred to in several of the GA’s speeches.

There are many patients with “Gender Identity Issues” who are lumped into the category of “Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual or Transsexual”. I have sat quietly for many years as members of my church have condemned all of them, shouting “Lesbian” at a patient with 5 alpha reducase deficiency, for example. I have sat by quietly whilst the Utah State Legislator has formally legalized discrimination against these patients. I have watched their right to marry be denied. I have learned of the suicides of patients with sexual variance. I have stood silently as others were murdered in hate crimes. I see these patients called “homosexual” almost daily – and worse names. I want to know what the GAs are doing to help these patients adjust, to help them cope, to help them adapt, to love them, to accept them, when it is NOT possible for them to change.

[Anonymous]

Hafen spent a large portion of his talk, held during a Sunday-like service, criticizing the gay-rights movement and denying a biological link to sexual orientation. Same-sex attraction is “not in your DNA,” he said.

The above is from the posted article.

I confess, I just don’t understand why Hafen would say that.

[Author]

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