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Opposite sex attraction is not in your DNA, either. That statement lacks any and all understanding of what DNA is, and, by it’s color, any understanding of sexuality and gender identity, either. Thanks for your posts Wallace. I really appreciate your efforts to help and the information you give. If I did not believe that the atonement of Jesus Christ could reverse all the damage us humans do to each other in this life, it would seem like the most unfair world. I love the compassion and intelligence I see in this group. I’m a little bit late to the discussion, but I feel a lot like like Rix does about this issue. I find Bruce Hafen’s comments both ignorant and hurtful. I know a decent number of gay people–many for much of their lives. For most of them, they spent a good chunk of their early life racked with guilt, depressed, even suicidal, over the fact that they were attracted to the same sex. Many of them received numerous priesthood blessing promising them that their feelings would change–some were promised this would happen after they completed their missions, others were told it would happen immediately, and to this day, all of them are still gay. Most of them have come to accept who they are, and have chosen to embrace it and be happy with it, knowing it isn’t something that can or will change–it’s how they are. Their attractions for the same sex aren’t something they chose or can choose (I recognize that they can “choose” whether or not they act on it). Study after study indicates this is how most gay people are–they have always been attracted to the same sex the same way I have always been attracted to the opposite sex. You could try every kind of therapy, every kind of method, and I would never, ever be able to be attracted to men–it’s an impossibility; it’s the same way for much of the gay population.
There are certainly examples of people that claim they were gay and now they aren’t, but the percentages are enormously small within the gay community. I don’t know how many of you have read Michael Quinn’s book about same-sex dynamics, primarily from a Mormon perspective–anyway, it does a good job of documenting the way gay’s have been treated by the Church in the past vs. the way they are treated now. The Church has gone backwards, and it continues to go backwards with talks like Bruce Hafen’s and Prop 8.
I may end up wrong–I highly doubt it–but as science continues to progress, it will nail down with certainty the fact that for a majority of gay people, it is how they came out biologically, just like heterosexuals, and it isn’t changeable. Science will probably get to the point where it can determine whether someone is gay by doing certain genetic tests or brain scans–I don’t know exactly how, but it will happen. When people get to the point where they have to accept the fact that sexual attraction, even for gays, is as biological as skin color or eye color, they will have a difficult time not granting gays all of the same rights and privileges that heterosexuals have–including the Church. I doubt the Church will ever perform gay marriages in Temples, but I do believe they will eventually support gay marriage from a civil perspective. Anyway, hopefully people within the Church leadership can stop saying things as ignorant, incorrect, and hurtful and Bruce Hafen–it does no good and it is absolutely wrong.
wordsleuth23 wrote:Anyway, hopefully people within the Church leadership can stop saying things as ignorant, incorrect, and hurtful and Bruce Hafen–it does no good and it is absolutely wrong.
Yes, this is why I considered it a step backwards. Fortunately, even as I’ve been reading the various Mormon blogs the last few days, most agree his talk was a bad move. Even a few iron rod apologists are ashamed of what he said. So I think the feedback will help church administrators to be a little more careful in the future. Personally, I see this issue as the next “blacks and the priesthood” transition, and I think the church leaders are scurrying to find the best way to save face and deal with it in a loving way.
At least that’s my hope….
Rix wrote:I see this issue as the next “blacks and the priesthood” transition
Agreed. However, I’m not sure the church sees it that way . . .
Rix wrote: “I see this issue as the next “blacks and the priesthood” transition.”
Yep…I has to be. Right before the “women in the priesthood” transition.
Bruce in Montana wrote:Rix wrote:
“I see this issue as the next “blacks and the priesthood” transition.”
Yep…I has to be. Right before the “women in the priesthood” transition.
Or maybe right after…either ways okay by me!
Does anyone find it interesting that this story just died in the media? The only place I saw it was the trib. I didn’t expect it to make news on KSL, but I’m surprised the national media didn’t pick it up. Rix, Thank you profusely for starting this thread. For those of us who have gay brothers and sons, to listen to the comments Elder Hafen made caused much pain. I know better. I have seen their lives as they parallel mine. I know they can fall in love even as I did. I know they bleed even as I do. Their hurt is my hurt (vicariously), because they are my loved ones. One brother is gone, possibly from AIDS, another is aged and dependent on me. I am there for him. My son continues down his road and I stand ready to walk beside him in his trials and successes. There is a third party who walks with us as well. I leave it to you to decide what His name his.
I was so angered by this that I finally did a point-point refutation of the talk on my blog. It felt good, in a cathartic, fight -ignorance-with-fact sort of way. I was up all night last night working on it, but now my head feels a lot better (the frustrations stopped swirling around with no where to go). MadamCurie wrote:I was so angered by this that I finally did a point-point refutation of the talk on my blog. It felt good, in a cathartic, fight -ignorance-with-fact sort of way. I was up all night last night working on it, but now my head feels a lot better (the frustrations stopped swirling around with no where to go).
I would love to read it…do you have a link?
That was great MadamCurie, I just finished it! Rix:
the link is that tiny bot on the bottom of her post.
The link is through the “What I believe” button. There are two refutation posts there, parts 1 and 2. MadamCurie, A masterful article. Thank you tenderly for your well-thought out dissertation regarding civil and social justice.
Thank you MadamCurie, for all of your thoughts. At this point, I am a little overwhelmed. I work in the Science field, performing laboratory testing. The FDA requires that all methodologies undergo stringent validation. The validation process is complex and strictly statistical – religion and emotions do not come into play.
This same, rigorous validation process is also used when evaluating medications, treatment protocols and psycho therapeutic regimes.
I am simply at a loss for finding proper clinical validation of methodologies employed by Evergreen International or taught at BYU.
I work in Research Park, in Salt Lake City, Utah. Most of my friends work in Research, Genetics, Proteomics, Genetic Counseling, Analytical Biochemistry etc. Many of them are LDS. Personally, I refuse to use an experimental treatment unless it is part of a qualified study and follows all of the medical ethics protocols.
“First do not harm” is the basic foundation in Medical Science. There are also legal implications for promising cures when no scientifically valid studies are provided to back up the claim. Elder Hafen was a Dean of BYU School of Law, so he should know this.
I want to give Elder Hafen the reverence and respect he desires. He is likely a devoted, kind, sincere servant of the Lord. His speech, however, totally lacked legal, moral, ethical and scientific clarity.
Sadly, I suspect that Elder Hafen is just suffering from the onset of mental decline that so often comes with age.
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