"Homesexuals CAN Change..," A giant step backwards for the

[Anonymous]

MWallace,

That is a neat study. Here is what Wikipedia has to say about that study, and several addition ones (including a meta-analysis) that replicated the findings:

Chromosome linkage studies

Chromosome linkage studies of sexual orientation have indicated the presence of multiple contributing genetic factors throughout the genome. In 1993, Dean Hamer and colleagues published findings from a linkage analysis of a sample of 76 gay brothers and their families.[15] Hamer et al. found that the gay men had more gay male uncles and cousins on the maternal side of the family than on the paternal side. Gay brothers who showed this maternal pedigree were then tested for X chromosome linkage, using twenty-two markers on the X chromosome to test for similar alleles. In another finding, thirty-three of the forty sibling pairs tested were found to have similar alleles in the distal region of Xq28, which was significantly higher than the expected rates of 50% for fraternal brothers. This was popularly (but inaccurately) dubbed as the ‘gay gene’ in the media, causing significant controversy.

A later analysis by Hu et al. replicated and refined these findings. This study revealed that 67% of gay brothers in a new saturated sample shared a marker on the X chromosome at Xq28.[16] Sanders et al. (1998) replicated the study, finding 66% Xq28 marker sharing in 54 pairs of gay brothers.[17] Although two other studies (Bailey et al., 1999; McKnight and Malcolm, 2000) failed to find a preponderance of gay relatives in the maternal line of homosexual men[17], a rigorous replication of the maternal loading was reported on samples in Italy in England. One study by Rice et al. in 1999 failed to replicate the Xq28 linkage results.[18] Meta-analysis of all available linkage data indicates a significant link to Xq28, but also indicates that additional genes must be present to account for the full heritability of sexual orientation.

Mustanski et al. (2005) performed a full-genome scan (instead of just an X chromosome scan) on individuals and families previously reported on in Hamer et al. (1993) and Hu et al. (1995), as well as additional new subjects.[19] With the larger sample set and complete genome scan, the study found somewhat reduced linkage for Xq28 than reported by Hamer et al. However, they did find other markers with significant likelihood scores at 8p12, 7q36 and 10q26. Interestingly, one of the links showed highly significant maternal loading, thus further confirming the previous family studies.

[Anonymous]

@ Poppy:

I love that you’re staying engaged in this discussion. Thank you for sometimes being the lone voice. I hope you understand how much we all appreciate and respect your views. For me personally, it’s been great to “get to know you” on this forum.

And I love so much what Rix said. Very beautiful and compassionate. I feel so, so strongly that love is the overriding principle in this whole conundrum, which is why I made such a radical change in my own lifestyle. I hope and pray that love will eventually win, whatever that means and whatever that looks like.

[Anonymous]

Thanks, Madam,

Those studies have since been refined. There is so much new information that is becoming available and it is exciting. Some researchers are even talking about a distant future that involves treatments for many conditions. I want to keep my mind open and continue to study and learn. I reject arguments on either side that sound authoritative or conclusive – we have too much to learn, so much we don’t know. God is the only one who truly “Knoweth all things”.

[Anonymous]

George wrote:

I don’t know if unconditional love toward both of them would have changed anything. I just know my folks missed out on much not really knowing how special they both were. And speaking of special, my gay son in Santa Fe. How proud I am of his activist stance in civil and social rights, his concern for the environment, his amazing spirituality (exLDS RM), and his concern for his birth family. If he someday marries a friend, I’ll pay for the wedding. And If he doesn’t gain Heaven, I will join him in Hades. He is my son.

George, your post was beautiful, and really touched me on many levels. Thank you for sharing such a tender experience. I think we are supposed to learn to love and accept people the way they are…and leave the judgments to God. That is true Charity. Thank you for sharing.

[Anonymous]

Poppyseed wrote:

And truthfully, I am trying to go as far as I can to meet you Rix and others here as far as I can. I honestly can’t go where you want me to. I know I am a minority here. I hope you’ll let me stay and rub shoulders with you anyway. 😳

This is why I respect you, Poppyseed. You stand up for what you believe, and allow others the same.

As a side note, my sister cut me off for a while (completely different scenario, but the same attitude). I never stopped emailing or joking with her to keep a relationship open. After about 10 years, she’s in a place where she is able to be around me and my family and make the effort to have a bro/sis relationship again. She told me last month her goal is to make the effort to come see me and my house. I’m happy we are now reconnecting. Sometimes they just need time…and that’s ok.

[Anonymous]

Rix wrote:

I often hear “love the sinner, hate the sin.” I haven’t found that to be very realistic in the church.

Rix, can you help me understand this a little more? Is it not realistic because you can’t love someone if you don’t accept them totally (sins and all), or are you just saying it isn’t realistic in the church because church members can’t shed the fear of God?

I think I fall into this camp and view things this way…I don’t like the sin and don’t know why I should not hate the sin. If my son was getting into addictive drug habits, I will not love him and his drug stash. I would try to get him help to change before he ruins his life. That is how I would love him the most.

Certainly SSA is a different thing than drug addiction…so I can’t say I view it as a physical danger threatening someone’s life, but if I don’t believe it is God’s way…can I still just love my gay brother and still hate homosexuality? I don’t feel it is my responsibility to make him change because I don’t see a risk as I would in the drug addiction example, but I also don’t see a value in me embracing homosexuality in order to love him. What risks am I running by thinking this way?

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

Rix wrote:

I often hear “love the sinner, hate the sin.” I haven’t found that to be very realistic in the church.

Rix, can you help me understand this a little more? Is it not realistic because you can’t love someone if you don’t accept them totally (sins and all), or are you just saying it isn’t realistic in the church because church members can’t shed the fear of God?

Fair questions Heber, and I’ll do my best to explain my thoughts. First, much of this comes from MANY talks about this with my gay family members and friends.

One illustration we might both understand is maybe a hobby we have. Say golf. Assume our religion says golf is a sin. Say I like to golf a few times a year. It probably wouldn’t be too hard for you to “love” me because my golf doesn’t define me. It’s a minor part of my life.

Romantic intimacy is very different…I think for straights as well as gays. Again, an example would be if the church declared that my attraction, and desire to be intimate with a woman was wrong. You know what they say about how often “we” think about sex … 😳 😆 ; so it really is very much who and what I am. The desire to love and be loved is the strongest (next to food and water) urge we have, so for another to even think it is wrong for me to crave that is palpable to me…and I feel judged, and often cannot get past that judgment to believe you might really “love” me anyway. My passions ARE a huge part of who I am. To “hate” them is to hate me.

Now I understand that if you believe that those passions are not God-given…that they are somehow instilled by Satan, that it would be a different situation. That is also why it is such a challenge for most gays. They KNOW they have always been gay. They KNOW it is natural for them. They knew it at 4, 5, 6 years old. So they really struggle to trust anybody that tells them something different — particularly that they “love” them.

So yes, I can see the logic in comparing it to say a drug addiction; but even that is not who I am — my humanity is.

[Anonymous]

Rix:

Ok. Good response.

Is it ok to play a little devil’s advocate and ask you to respond again?

My friend is totally in love with another woman than his wife. Nothing against his wife, she’s a great person. He loves her. My friend tells me, “Its not about her, its about me. I just feel this way and I want to be with this other woman. I don’t want to be judged at church about this. I can’t help how I feel…if God made me feel this way, how can it be bad? Please don’t tell me I’m a bad person.” He starts telling me as his friend that he’s going to make the plunge, and choose to be with that other woman and not live the law of chastity. Is it not realistic that I can still love him and hate what he’s doing? Or if I really want to still love him as my friend, I am going to not view what he’s doing as a sin?

I’ve tried to express this in prior posts, I’m really not trying to be a bigot and I have nothing against any group…I’m simply working through these questions myself and appreciate others’ views on it.

[Anonymous]

What a wonderful group this is. I love reading all your posts. And Poppyseed, I do understand and totally relate to you. Even though I have come to alot more acceptance, I still struggle off and on because I think I will always wish my son could be straight. He was sexually attracted to one girl once. He admitted that, so it gave me some hope, but I have come to turn this over to God and allow my son the free agency to make his own decisions. In fact, to be fair to Evergreen, when my husband and I were trying to decide about allowing our son to go to a local gay prom (he was 17 at the time), We didn’t know what to do because our son was so angry at us. We had decided at first to not let him go. Then I called the Evergreen office and a young man answered. To this day, I have no clue who it was. I told about our situation and I was very surprised at what he said to me. He said, “The more you try and force your son towards ex-gay ministries and not allow him his free agency on this, the more you will drive him to do the opposite. Satan is the author of force and wanted to take away our free agency.” I was taken a back because I felt like he was comparing me to Satan. But, I prayed about all this and the Lord told me to allow him to make his own decisions on whether to go to church or this prom. So, I told my son what Evergreen had told me and what our decision was. You should have seen the immeadiate change in his face. His heart softened and he started crying and thanking us. He was very surprised an Evergreen person would tell me that. Our son ended up going to the gay prom and we met his date. Which was extremely difficult for us.

George, I too very much appreciated your last post about your family. It was very touching. About the statement of ‘love the sinner, not the sin’. At a Love Won Out Conference I attended, one of the few guys who was able to get married to a woman and do well, talked alot about this statement and how gays feel about it. He said, that may sound good to Christians in theory but to a gay person, their sexual attraction and desires, is who they are so they really feel you are rejecting the and saying they are sinful. It would be like saying to me that my left-handedness is sinful. But, I understand Poppyseed and how she and many members can feel compassion for gays in the church, yet feel that acting out on these feelings is wrong. I will never forget the day my son said to me, “God hates gays, doesn’t he mom.” I said, “No God loves gays, he just hates gay sex.” Then he said, “Well, unless you accept my homosexuality you don’t love me.” I answered with, “Well, I don’t expect you to love my fat thighs in order to love me. You can be a democrat and I can be a Republican and we can disagree and still love each other. Fortunately, were able to stay close and still love each other through all this. But, the day I told him that we would support him and a gay marriage, was when he felt we really accepted him. It is so hard to be torn between one’s religious faith and your children.

[Anonymous]

A bit of an update…probably no surprise to many, but this talk has stirred up the hornet’s nest here in Salt Lake City! The blogs are going crazy, and the letters to the editor are numerous. In today’s SL Trib, this article appeared:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13422650#

It looks like we are not alone in feeling as we do: “Was Hafen speaking for himself or the church? Were LDS leaders backing away from statements that they “don’t know” if a person is born gay? Has the church changed course?

The church isn’t saying yes, and it isn’t saying no.

But observers are.

“It was a big step backwards,” said Gary Watts, a Provo physician who, for decades, has watched the church’s position on homosexuality evolve. “The church has a long way to go to get into the 21st century. They’re making incremental movements. What Hafen has done is take them back 25 years.”

Personally, I think the discussion is good. It makes people think. I think it brings out the compassionate side of many that might have been staunch previously. I guess I should thank Elder Hafen for that… 😆

Heber13 wrote:

Rix: Ok. Good response.

Is it ok to play a little devil’s advocate and ask you to respond again?

My friend is totally in love with another woman than his wife. Nothing against his wife, she’s a great person. He loves her. My friend tells me, “Its not about her, its about me. I just feel this way and I want to be with this other woman. I don’t want to be judged at church about this. I can’t help how I feel…if God made me feel this way, how can it be bad? Please don’t tell me I’m a bad person.” He starts telling me as his friend that he’s going to make the plunge, and choose to be with that other woman and not live the law of chastity. Is it not realistic that I can still love him and hate what he’s doing? Or if I really want to still love him as my friend, I am going to not view what he’s doing as a sin?

Obviously, there are so many factors that your friend is dealing with. I think it is a very valid comparison…and a good one to address. AND I think the way I would approach it is the same as I do with gays…that is, why do I feel the need to make a judgment? He is the only one that really knows all the factors in his decisions…I don’t see any need to be a judge of another person that way. I know there has been discussion about what sin is, but even if YOU are completely certain it would be a “sin” for you, do you need to conclude it is wrong for him?

Please don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying it is right for him…I simply don’t feel compelled to pass judgment on another person. Frankly, if he feels you will love him unconditionally, he might sense a trust with you that as a confidant, might help him bounce things off you and make the best decision…whatever that is.

[Anonymous]

Rix wrote:

So yes, I can see the logic in comparing it to say a drug addiction; but even that is not who I am — my humanity is.

Yes! Our humanity! I think the addiction is a good example (comparison is the wrong word). Maybe I just relate to that because of what I have been through with my DH’s addiction. But I have been taught, I think, from God and pain and the long road of making mistakes, what the principle of “love the sinner” is all about. My H’s addiction….his behaviors/fears/issues/tendancies/personality etc…..I was tested and challenged to love (verb) him above all of it….around all of it….and through all of it independent of whether it changed or not. My love for him, which died (almost) and then grew back over time, wasn’t about me or whether or not we agreed, although I made it about me a lot!! In fact at this point in the ball game, dealing with each others “stuff” is just part of the journey as we consentrate less on it, and more on HOW we deal. The pain and the love live side by side together and they tolerate each other. They don’t react to each other. When we react is when we get in trouble! I am learning that I can love him thru any state of being….and with people those states tend to change regularly. It is the love that is constant. I also think this is what the Lord is trying to teach us about loving enemies, or frienemies as the case may be.

Rix. I feel you are telling me that in order to love my brother…..to really evolve in my love for my brother that I must accept his lifestyle..his behaviors….his way of seeing the world by adopting it. And while I appreciate how one might feel to define love this way, this is not the definition that I feel like I am being taught. You and I don’t see eye to eye, that is clear, yet you have extended your love to me and I have extended mine to you. I don’t measure your offering based upon how much you accept my point of view. I base it on how you treat me as we share ideas. Love transcends all behaviors and points of view! I can learn what Bridget has learned…..to let the people in my life choose and to live in their own process free from my controlling actions. This principle I am trying to express transcends the issue of homosexuality or financial success or any other behavior or thought process. This is why love is kind and long suffering and demonstrates what tolerance really is. Why is it that I can come to a thread like this and absolutely stand in opposition to lots of what is being said and at the same time feel love from Bridget and Swim and Heber? Why is that? Do they need me to change before they can express love? Do they need me to conform first? And what if I don’t change my position? What if I never see things as you do? Does love stop there? Does it have a timer that goes off when some grace period has elapsed? Maybe love is less about acceptance of stuff and more about empathy and validation and listening and understanding that “stuff”.

What is it that we tend to advise when someone comes here full of fear that their religious doubts might kill their marriages? We invite them to a better place where partners can have different views and love each other through the struggle. We tell them to put their marriage first. We should do that with everyone, dont’ you think? Put our relationships first. I can love my brother and he can love me inspite of it all. Caving is not required! Its about detachment. Its about tolerance, yes. But I think that looks more like making a place for anothers process and accepting that persons autonomy inside that process without needing anothers process and thinking and behaving to be like mine …to be independent. That feels unconditional to me. No fingers of mine touching what I shouldn’t touch, and no fingers of others invading where they shouldn’t either. And inside of love too there is room for boundaries….places we don’t choose to go and things we don’t choose to let inside. There is a place to say ….”that behavior isn’t healthy for me”. There is even a space to feel that you don’t like something or to view some thing as wrong. If I say no, is that unloving? If I say I don’t agree, is that rejection of a person’s humanity ? I can stand for what I believe is right and maintain love for those who oppose me. To require me to love homosexuality….to view it as if it is not sinful behavior is NOT a demonstration that I love my brother. If he needs me to accept his behavior in order to love him or to go against myself to love him, then he doesn’t understand love and he is denying the love that is impatiently waiting right in front of him.

The truth is that “love the sinner” doesn’t work in the church or in politics (especially on this issue) or in families is because of selfishness and limited thinking. We care about our own safety, our own comfort, our own validation, our platform MORE than we care about true tolerance and acceptance…..which is to let people choose and be. Something that I might add is at the very heart of what it means to be LDS in the first place. And in addition, its a symptom of not having truly learned to accept ourselves and love ourselves this way. And that is why we need others to do it for us. Loving and accepting others starts at home. If we can do it for ourselves inspite of our weakness and sin and needs for change, we can do it for others too. “Loving others as ourselves” means a lot to me inside this paradigm.

Ok….I will stop before I beat this dead horse to bits!!!!

( And a special thanks to Heber and Swim and Bridget for your comments.)

[Anonymous]

What a great POST you made Poppyseed. I really admire and respect you. Bridget

[Anonymous]

Poppyseed wrote:

The truth is that “love the sinner” doesn’t work in the church or in politics (especially on this issue) or in families is because of selfishness and limited thinking. We care about our own safety, our own comfort, our own validation, our platform MORE than we care about true tolerance and acceptance…..which is to let people choose and be.

I think you nailed it, poppy! That’s it!!

Of course, there feels like a moral imperative or, at least, an ethical one, to stand with the oppressed on any issue, even if they shouldn’t really need it. If done with the appropriate understanding of not trying to change a mind but simply to support and love.

I can see examples of this in the civil rights fight. Should I force someone or coerce someone or shame someone into recognizing that interracial marriage is okay? Their interpretation of the bible tells them otherwise, as do their clergy. It’s not my job to change their minds or their hearts. And, if they don’t want to have their interracial couple relatives over for dinner, that’s their choice. But, I’ll stand with the minority, oppressed party in defense of individual liberty, individual responsibility, and mutual respect.

I shouldn’t feel compelled to change anyone’s mind, just as I’m sure that only my own personal experiences will shape my opinion; therefore, I won’t have my mind changed by anyone else’s opinion. That is mutual respect. That is a healthy approach, and leaves external judgment and influence aside.

Which is why it is so sad that a religious leader would attempt to judge and influence others in an attempt to seek validation of his own feelings while judging unrighteously the motivations of others. Judging unrighteously because he doesn’t know the hearts of everyone who thinks differently than he does and yet judges them nonetheless.

[Anonymous]

Poppyseed wrote:

Rix. I feel you are telling me that in order to love my brother…..to really evolve in my love for my brother that I must accept his lifestyle…

I’m sorry if I gave you that impression. I’m going to keep this post short to emphasize the point I am trying to make. I would like to suggest you look at this a bit obliquely; change the angle you’re focused on. Try to look at it from the perspective of not making a moral judgment at all.

Let God do that…you just love him.

[Anonymous]

poppyseed wrote:

The truth is that “love the sinner” doesn’t work in the church or in politics (especially on this issue) or in families is because of selfishness and limited thinking. We care about our own safety, our own comfort, our own validation, our platform MORE than we care about true tolerance and acceptance…..which is to let people choose and be.

Well said, Poppy. I was a bit disappointed at church today, feeling a bit empty. I was uplifted by your wonderful sermon on love and tolerance. I think you nailed it. Thanks for that wonderful post.

Rix, I agree with you as well…no judgment, leave that to the Great Judge. I do not think that me defining something as a sin is a judgment, however. That is just how I define the actions…nothing to do with how I love the person.

Thanks for a great discussion all!

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