- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
So I have been lurking on this site for quite some time, but this is my first post here. My search into church history began when the policy was issued about children of LGBT. That policy felt so wrong to me on every level. I began searching for “truth” when it occurred to me if that policy wasn’t right or true, was the church as a whole true? Born and raised LDS, I have based my testimony largely on feelings and what I thought was faith. Finding out about the history of the church, namely Joseph Smith, I feel deceived. Honesty and Integrity are huge for me, and that sentiment is largely based on the values I learned at church. The church requires honesty in “all our dealings” to enter the temple. Why hasn’t the church been honest with us? Why are they still not being honest? The essays are there now, but as I sat in Sunday School today I wanted to scream! (The lesson was on Joseph) I guess I’m just venting, but how do you all reconcile this and stay? Joseph was human only goes so far for me. Ignorance is bliss and I truly wish I’d never started reading. Please be supportive as I’m feeling so hurt right now. Everything I’ve based my life on is possibly not true? It’s devastating. Oh how I feel for your emotional pain. I have been there and it hurts like hell. But I will tell you it will get better. You asked for positive responses and if that is what you want, please stop reading my comment and go on to the next comments.
I have not found a way to reconcile my most major betrayal of my trust in my life just as you describe. Or maybe I should say I can’t reconcile it in a way that the church leaders would approve and they would not like my conclusion.
If you’re like me, you might have a web of family relationships tied up in the church. To leave would be devastating to those relationships. Staying full on is also difficult for the reasons you describe. The answer for me was to be in the middle somewhere, where I can still feel inner peace without being a full-on Mormon.
So, I minimized the church footprint in my life while keeping it on the radar. I go most weeks, support my family in it, and contribute in ways that are meaningful and tolerable for me. I have family members with TR’s and I support them.
I cut out those parts that are onerous and unhelpful. And then found something to replace the big place the church had in my life — for me, this was community service.
Each person has to find their own way. I do understand the feeling of being hoodwinked though. Although I think leaders’ motives are good, there is a lot of soft-pedaling and sometimes, gentle misrepresentation of certain aspects of our religion. “No paid clergy” is one of them. Of course they are paid at the top. But we are led to believe no one is paid. I’ve seen genius level lawyers teaching Gospel Doctrine assert that NO ONE is paid when members corrected him that only the local people are not paid.
Truth Restored, our church’s history for consumption by members leaves out a lot of stuff that is eyebrow raising. I found out about a lot of bad stuff in church history on the steps of non-members homes for the first time, for example. How did I get all the way from being an investigator, baptized, through the temple, and the Missionary Training Center without learning about these things even once? Or even at a cursory level? So, at times, there is a lack of transparency.
We do have the essays tucked away in a little corner of LDS. org, although I have heard they are now referenced alongside other articles in Gospel Doctrine lessons. Nonetheless, it wouldn’t surprise me if the proliferation of church history members knew nothing about via the Internet is part of what encouraged such transparency…
So, I hear you. I posted here, issue by issue until I found my own way. I am in a family with die-hard Mormons now, but still have managed to keep my marriage and family relationships intact. I am involved in the Ward and at times feel included. No longer suitable for leadership or willing to make big sacrifices for the church. And have made the decision not to go through the temple for my daughter’s wedding there in a few months, assuming the engagement holds together.
Honesty is nothing more than saying what you believe, whether or not it is true. “Full” honesty is saying everything you believe, whether or not it is true, and not holding anything back ***when asked*** – no matter how much you think it might hurt someone, for example.
Transparency is saying everything you believe at all times, whether you are asked or not, with no regard for the effect.
Not sharing something you believe is not being dishonest – unless you are intentionally trying to make someone believe something you do not believe. It simply is not being transparent. That difference is important.
I think the VAST majority of church leaders who approved the general narrative of the Church for so long weren’t being dishonest. I think they believed what they approved – and those who knew some details were being omitted (nowhere near all of the leaders fit this category) believed total transparency would hurt people unnecessarily.
I want to wrap up this comment with another critical point:
People can be honest and wrong at the same time. My sentences above about our church leaders are honest – but it might or might not be correct. The people who taught or teach that the Priesthood ban was God’s will probably all are being honest, but I persoanlly believe they are incorrect. People who teach that Thomas Marsh left the Church over milk strippings believe that version – even many church leaders at all levels, probably. They are being honest when they approve that interpretation in our lessons, even though I think they are wrong. People who approve the missionary lessons and exclude details we might think should be included are being honest in those decisions, even if we think they are wrong.
It is easy to conflate being honest and being right – and it is easy to conflate being honest with being transparent. They each are different things.
I’ve been there. Heck, sometimes I still get mad for the Church teaching me things which turned out to be objectively/factually wrong. It’s not something easy to forgive, especially from a church whose #1 claim to fame is “Our Church is the one and only true church upon the face of the earth”. It’s a tough thing to swallow. One day, I hope religion as a whole takes a lesson from science. We’ve got certain ideas about how the world works, and that knowledge brings us a lot of joy. But is also brings up further questions, which we need to figure out the answers to. And sometimes, what we discover completely turns our world upside down. But clinging to things you once believed, when the evidence is against you, isn’t a virtue. It’s stupid.
1st Corinthians 13:11 wrote:When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
It’s okay to be wrong. We’ve all been wrong about many things; and in likelyhood, we’re still wrong about many more things. And that’s perfectly alright, as long as we’re willing to change our minds, when we find out we’re in error. As for the others, who believe in the truthfulness of the Church with all their hearts, be kind to them. It’s a painful experience to have your world shattered. Joseph Smith made some awful mistakes, but he also had a lot of awful things happen to him. But he also did a lot of good, and had a lot of wisdom to share. And he built a Chuch which, though not exactly true, is still one of the most awesome churches on the face of the Earth.
I hope you can find it within you to forgive. We didn’t know any better; now we do. The truth can only be concealed for so long; I think the Church is changing for the better, and I am excited to see where it goes.
Been there and done that. I feel your pain and wish that none of us ever had to suffer such. Not to say that I don’t think my faith is stronger after the ordeal, but I’d love it if there were a better/easier way. Quote:Ken: What doesn’t kill you, you know, usually makes you…
Bart: Makes you hurt real bad and makes you cry.
(Dirk Gently’s Holistic Detective Agency)For me it helps to separate the gospel from the church. The gospel is everlasting, it always has been and always will be. It exists without the church. The church is dependent on the gospel and without the gospel there would be no church. The gospel is very simple – essentially believe in Christ. Many in the church tend to complicate that pure message.
I’d like to expand Dande’s scripture quote:
Quote:9 For we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part; 10 but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly (or in a riddle) but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.
We understand so very little.
That said, my issues were not with Joseph Smith so I can’t totally answer your question. You said you don’t want to hear was a flawed man. Truth is he was. This actually gives me hope because if God did work through such a flawed individual I am in pretty good shape. And let us not forget the atonement, which is not some past/future event but is relevant to us in the here and now.
Thank you for all the thoughtful, kind responses. I feel like I’m in a continuous state of limbo. I feel hurt, sad, angry, guilty and lonely. I’m at a point in my life where I don’t feel like I can just walk away. However, I have teenagers and feel like I’m failing them because now I’m not willing to be “all in” either. I’m not being true to myself by staying, but would hurt so many others by leaving. I’m trying to find a comfortable place in the middle. I feel anything but comfortable 
Beachplease7 wrote:
I’m trying to find a comfortable place in the middle. I feel anything but comfortable
You are not alone in that desirehttps://bycommonconsent.com/2017/08/20/in-the-middle-space/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://bycommonconsent.com/2017/08/20/in-the-middle-space/ I hear you. Our Sunday School was also on Joseph, lesson 32: To Seal the Testimony. The statement was made (from the manual), “The prophet Joseph Smith did more for the salvation of men in this world than anyone except Jesus.” and most of the hour was spent answering the question, “In what ways did the prophet Joseph Smith do more for the salvation of men than anyone except Jesus?” It turned into an hour long worship service for Joseph Smith. If I were being transparent, to follow Ray’s definitions, I would have caved to the temptation of raising my hand and pointing out how lessons like this are the reason people believe Mormons aren’t Christian. Of course I didn’t do it. I don’t think the people that were participating in that class would have understood the point I’d try to make. But from my perspective Mormons are both Christian and not Christian. I can choose to focus on how Mormons are Christian and sit on my comment.
But that’s Sunday School this year. What’cha gonna do?
In church at the local level I hear people being honest in communicating things that they believe. For example. if milk strippings are shared as the reason for Thomas Marsh leaving the church it’s because someone is either reading it from the manual or sharing the extent of their knowledge on the subject. They’d probably say more but they don’t know more.
At the more global level I hear people being honest in communicating things that they believe,they’re just people plucked from the local levels, but I’m sure there are many leaders that do intentionally hold back. Perhaps they are burdened by apologetics that they don’t want to burden other people with. Perhaps they feel like they are in possession of the “meat” and feel that most people still require “milk.” It’s hard to guess others’ motivations. Maybe they’re similar to me in a Sunday School lesson worshiping Joseph, they sat on saying things because they felt their audience wasn’t ready. Presumptuous? Sure.
The essays are interesting. Call me a cynic but I get the distinct feeling that they wouldn’t exist if the cat hadn’t already gotten out of the bag. There are many places in the essays where I feel people are being intentionally misleading but there again I can’t tell if that’s because an apologetic that worked for the essay writers falls flat with me (simple matter of reaching different conclusions) or whether someone is still unwilling to be completely transparent with the information.
I do wonder whether the people that wrote the essays, the Q15, and the people in the correlation department that went over the essays nine ways from Sunday have some part of them that still considers the information (both the information that was included and information that was omitted) to be anti propaganda. I’m sure that affects what the essays look like.
Beachplease7 wrote:
I feel anything but comfortable
Beach, we know what you mean. It is a sucky position to be in. I HATE it; and I still feel like I’m struggling to make the best of a non-ideal situation.
nibbler wrote:
It turned into an hour long worship service for Joseph Smith.
On this subject, just the other day I decided to do a google search on “Inspiring quotes from Joseph Smith”. I was suprised by what I got. There was one or two nuggets of wisdom I found inspiring. 95% of everything I found was focused on either “The Church is undeniably 100% true, and the only true Church accepted of Christ”, “I am only 2nd to Jesus in awesomeness”, promising blessings to those who followed him, and condeming those who didn’t. One of my favorite quotes I came across was:
Quote:No one can ever enter the celestial kingdom unless he is strictly honest.
I also agree with Nibbler, that there are many understandable reasons why certain leaders in the Church aren’t 100% transparent, or even 100% honest. For most, I think it’s a combination of firmly believing in what they’ve been taught, and what they’ve sacrificed for. It’s much easier to disregard evidence that goes against the faith you’ve built your life around. The second main reason, and I wonder if this is more common than we think, is because the truth is hard to swallow. A lot of the cold, hard facts aren’t faith inspiring, and can cause a lot of doubt to the legitimacy of Church claims (as we all know). So they cherry pick what they teach, in order to maximize faith and minimize doubt.
I do think the essays were largely the Church’s way of getting a voice out on the more troubling aspects of our religion. Before, they could just dismiss everything as anti-mormon literature, “worse than hard-core pornography” as I once heard. But now, with the wonders of the internet, it’s out in the open as plain as day. You can even find scanned copies of records and letters from the early Church. Many of those topics became impossible to ignore.
Bp7, Welcome to the site. I’m sorry that you are going through this. There’s no getting around it, it just plain hurts. I want you to know that this is the right place. We get you more than anyone else will for a while. What’s great for us about your joining the conversation here is that you get us, too. So, with your added voice, our community becomes a little stronger and a little better. All our stories are different, but we have much more that is in common.
One thing that helped me, though your mileage may vary, is when I was finally able to set out on a more purposeful effort to find myself. By this I simply mean that for a while, I defined myself by what I didn’t believe, but later, I learned to define myself by what I do believe (or believe in) and by where I am trying to go.
One other item I want to bring up… don’t worry about your faith responsibility with other people for right now. You still love your family I’m sure. Try not to feel ever-increasing pressure about the indoctrination they are getting from the Church and what your message should be. For now, figure yourself out. Then, when it’s time to open up to your family, you can rightfully say that you are finding a new faith and/or belief system. Then, you can support their faith in exactly the same way that you hope they will support yours, whatever it is. Remember that you are not responsible for what your kids believe (or believe in). That is theirs. I have had children serve missions after I opened up to them about myself. I’ve had children marry in the temple without being able to attend. But it’s their faith and I support them and it has brought them joy. I can’t complain about having kids who live true to what they believe (or believe in). If their faith later changes as mine did, then at least I’ve modeled that one can still be a good person and it’s not the end of everything we know; which hopefully eases the transition a bit. If their faith never changes, then I simply hope they find happiness in it.
I wish you well. I look forward to your hearing your voice here.
Quote:“We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”
You are part of “we”, “our”, and “all men”. Hold onto THAT iron rod, since I believe strongly it is the word of God.
Mormonism’s pure view of grace says you have the privilege of worshiping according to your own conscience. We tend to narrow it to others outside the Church, but that isn’t what the statement says. It applies to members of the Church, just as pointedly.
It applies to you.
+1 on “On Own Now” comments Hi Bp7, Perhaps you have read the following points during your lurking. However they are worth repeating…
Quote:Take it slow (you seem to be doing so), focus on what you do believe (the core of the gospel is a great thing to focus on), and don’t dump all at once. In your case don’t dump all at once means don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. That is, just because you have come to believe some things are not true doesn’t mean everything is not true. It is not necessarily true that if Joseph Smith was a prophet, then the BoM is true, the church is true, etc. They can be true (or not true) on their own.
Do not dump all at once also means do not unload or vomit negative information onto another person. It is not fair to them and they will likely perceive it as an attack against everything they hold dear.
When people are grieving a good piece of advice that goes along with “Take it slow” is to not make any sudden life changes. A person that has lost a loved one may move – however that is just running from the pain. For people in faith crisis, I would say do not make any quick decisions about resignations, or proclamations, or sweeping lifestyle changes until you have had adequate time to process. It is your life, as you live it make sure that each step is one of thoughtful and deliberate action – rather than simply knee-jerk reaction. Even if the church narrative you had believed was not real, the consequences of your actions still are very real.
One last thing, I have come to the conclusion that our church shares much in common with other churches (both in their value and limitations). It can be both disappointing and comforting to contemplate our church being similar to other churches.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.