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In discussing issues with TBM and non TBM, I’ve realized a common apathy or even blind encouragement for that which leads to death. [Admin note:
There is a HUGE difference between “that which leads to death” and “killing”. This post is being edited to remove references to that which sometimes, in some situations, leads to death only. As mentioned in a comment below, other things also are being deleted, for reasons explained in that comment.] I don’t understand how anybody can so clearly support killing.
The US has been in so many wars – most have been unjust, bullying others for resources, etc. – so much needless killing, but since it’s not in our face, it seems many are apathetic, which is like supporting it.
There has been a major increase in extreme poverty – almost 1 billion of our brothers and sisters are chronically hungry (according to the world health organization). Every day, people are dying – thousands – from preventable causes, yet it seems that again, there is apathy. Some quickly use “corruption” as a scapegoat to justify a lack of action in helping the many in fatal need & indeed, unfair international traid laws is a problem. Yet, there are other factors like natural disasters & lack of clean water.
Some are even going out of their way to support or even play a part in killing innocent children (developing human beings) through abortion. [
Featherina believes abortion is inhumane killing. Explicit description of abortion deleted.] I’ve heard that suicide kills more than war – & considering the more subtle ways people slowly kill themselves, it’s probably true. [
Homosexuality portion deleted. Another thread had to be closed because of the exact same statements.] [
Charge that everyone who disagrees with author is suffering illusions and denying axiomatic truth deleted. That exact charge has been argued in another post, the same one referenced above that was deleted.] Why is killing so often supported so blindly – is it the cult mentality – religious and political?
Is it because of a limited, self-focused view that everything is ok here and now?
Innocent ignorance?
Yes, to the question in the title, they can – and they can do so and be “righteous”. They also can do so and be “unrighteous”. [Admin note:
This topic is fine to discuss, but it has the potential to be explosive and highly divisive – especially since it contains sub-topics that are highly emotional. Everyone, please be aware of that as you comment, if you choose to comment. We want honest answers, but we also want solution/coping focused answers. If it turns contentious and argumentative, it will be closed.] Featherina, I was with you for most of it until [ reference to a statement in the post that has been deleted]. Reginald D Hunter had a good point about those who contradict themselves by opposing abortion but supporting war. I don’t particularly like the idea of either.
I don’t any of the US/UK wars of the last 15 years or so have been justified and no defence of our country has been needed.
But… Would I had to kill to defend my family from being killed. I hope I never have to find out. But if push came to shove I think I would.
Yeah. I put my money…. the thread gets locked.
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I too am anti-abortion and anti-war. If I am against one, it follows that I should be against the other. However, despite being anti-war and anti-nuclear, I am not a complete pacifist. It took war to destroy Fascism in most of Europe, and Asia, unseat Pol Pot and Idi Amin etc. That said war has resulted in an occupied Tibet, a wasted Chechnya, 100,000 dead Iraqis, genocide in umpteen places etc Contrary to common sense that tells me not to comment, I’m going to. To start, I’ll say that many people, LDS and non-LDS alike seem to have contradictory stances concerning killing. I’ll agree with that, but I want to make a few statements about why there are nuances or complications to simply proclaiming “LIFE” in all circumstances. Abortion – I used to be a hardcore pro-lifer, and probably most would still consider me to be that. However, in the past 10 years I’ve personally known 3 strong LDS women who had abortions because the fetus wouldn’t live more than a few minutes outside the womb, and in one of those cases the OB/GYN was a mormon bishop who recommended they consider abortion. I think both political sides over-simplify this issue. I have a TBM family member who had an abortion as a impoverished teenager – before she converted – and who claims she would make the same decision again.
War – If I were to condemn every person who sincerely believed the past few US wars were justified, I’d be condemning most of my family. I think reasonable people can disagree about this.
International poverty – I know just enough economics to get myself in trouble here. The economics / politics of poverty is extremely complicated, which is probably part of the reason we as a species haven’t figured it out. There’s a lot of evidence that democracies are the only form of government able to provide long term financial prosperity and political freedoms. Generally, the stronger the property rights, the more economically stable a country is. Famine is an political failure, not a natural disaster – there has never been a famine in a democracy. I don’t think you can outright dismiss corruption and power hungry leaders from being primary causes of poverty. The unfortunate thing is that there is no easy way to wave a magic wand and end corruption.
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Regarding things that lead to death,] I know a prominent Mormon who believes that humans are not meant to use medicine, and his son died at an early age because of it. Everyone, I skimmed the post and missed some of it. Since we have gone the rounds in the past about a couple of things that I didn’t realize were in the post, I am exercising my admin right to edit the original post to remove references to specific sexual activities and other references that don’t fit the mission of this site – and part of that is to edit the subsequent comments to be in line with the editing of the post.Particularly, this post will not be another homosexuality discussion. It will be focused solely on the issue of killing and why people see it differently – and how to deal with those differing views within the LDS church.
I hope everyone understands, since I still believe the issue of death and killing and how we view them differently can be a good discussion.
Now to answer, point by point, from my own perspective: Quote:In discussing issues with TBM and non TBM, I’ve realized a common apathy or even blind encouragement for that which leads to death.
I know of nobody who encourages that which leads to death. Accepting agency and encouraging / supporting killing are radically different things.
Quote:I don’t understand how anybody can so clearly support killing.
Maybe because “killing” is not a simple issue, with an easy “never do it” or “always accept it” answer. Even our legal system recognizes the need to classify some killing as “justifiable homicide” that should not incur any legal penalty.
Quote:The US has been in so many wars – most have been unjust, bullying others for resources, etc. – so much needless killing, but since it’s not in our face, it seems many are apathetic, which is like supporting it.
I don’t approve of the most recent wars in which the US has been involved, but “most” of the wars in which the US has been involved don’t fit the description above.
Quote:There has been a major increase in extreme poverty – almost 1 billion of our brothers and sisters are chronically hungry (according to the world health organization). Every day, people are dying – thousands – from preventable causes, yet it seems that again, there is apathy. Some quickly use “corruption” as a scapegoat to justify a lack of action in helping the many in fatal need & indeed, unfair international traid laws is a problem. Yet, there are other factors like natural disasters & lack of clean water.
There has been a major increase in the number of people living in extreme poverty, since the population of the world has exploded in the last century. However, in first-world countries, those in “poverty” now tend to be better off than most people who were considered “lower-middle class” anciently. It is necessary to consider corruption and how resources are shared in order to decide how to try to help. Not doing so does nothing whatsoever to alleviate poverty, since the poor never get the resources donated to and through corrupt organizations and governments.
Quote:Some are even going out of their way to support or even play a part in killing innocent children (developing human beings) through abortion. [Edit: Featherina believes abortion is inhumane killing. Explicit details of abortions deleted.]
The LDS Church’s official stance on abortion is a mixture of pro-life and pro-choice. It says, in essence, that the Church opposes abortion on moral grounds but outlines exceptions that are acceptable as a general rule (rape, incest, health of the mother [including emotional health, importantly]) – and the statement leaves the final decision in the hands of the parent(s). It also says the Church takes no position with regard to abortion law. I approve of that position.
Quote:I’ve heard that suicide kills more than war – & considering the more subtle ways people slowly kill themselves, it’s probably true.
Please provide a source. Unless “subtle ways” includes things like over-eating, cosmetic surgery gone bad, texting while driving, drinking and driving, mouthing off to someone who is violent, etc. (which just don’t fit into the category of “suicide”), I don’t believe deaths from suicide outnumber deaths from war, globally.
Quote:Why is killing so often supported so blindly – is it the cult mentality – religious and political?
Nope; it’s because it isn’t a simple issue. Even our scriptures don’t condemn killing in all cases.
However, part of it is because people tend not to react strongly when something doesn’t touch them directly – or when they are defending someone they love who, for example, chooses to join the military and, therefore, is involved in “killing”.
Quote:Is it because of a limited, self-focused view that everything is ok here and now?
Nope, not at all. I know almost nobody to whom that would apply accurately. However, I do think that some of it is driven by a focus on the next life to the demeaning of this one – and I think that applies to lots of LDS members and non-members, even though I believe it isn’t consistent with Mormon theology.
Quote:Innocent ignorance?
Yes, in some cases; no, in most cases – at least, not based on the connotations of that wording.
Old-Timer wrote:Everyone, I skimmed the post and missed some of it. Since we have gone the rounds in the past about a couple of things that I didn’t realize were in the post, I am exercising my admin right to edit the original post to remove references to specific sexual activities and other references that don’t fit the mission of this site.
Particularly, this post will not be another homosexuality discussion. It will be focused solely on the issue of killing and why people see it differently – and how to deal with those differing views within the LDS church.
I hope you understand, Featherina.
Fine. But the bet is off.
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I understand, cwald. This is a case of trying to follow my hope, not knowledge. 🙂 Yup,I wouldn’t have to think about killing someone trying to kill my family or kids. Sorry, there is real evil out in the world and living in debate land isn’t going to make that fact go away. Quote:
There has been a major increase in the number of people living in extreme poverty, since the population of the world has exploded in the last century. However, in first-world countries, those in “poverty” now tend to be better off than most people who were considered “lower-middle class” anciently.From a pure numbers perspective, it’s correct that the number of people in extreme poverty has increased. As noted, the dramatic increase in population caused that.
I want to point out that the average standard of living, life expectancy at birth, and mean years of education have increased globally since 1975 (Human Development Index). That’s across the world including even sub-saharan Africa. It’s not a perfect measurement but it’s an indication that we are not without hope and over 30+ years have improved.
For most of our existence, 2 legged humans have lived not much better than 4 legged animals, but things have improved dramatically (and I would argue globally) in the last 2 or 3 hundred years. Lots of room for improvement to be sure, but there have always been Malthusian predictions that humans will destroy themselves. So far it’s not been true, and I think we’re still moving in the right direction and will continue to do so with frequent bumps along the way.
And to the 2nd point of the quote – I quite agree. Though I’m certainly not poor, I wouldn’t trade my modest 3 bedroom home for the standard of living the queen of England enjoyed just 50 years ago.
cwald wrote:Fine. But the bet is off.
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I reckon a betting shop would have still paid out.
(We call them bookmakers, are they called betting shops in the states, I couldn’t remember)
mackay11 wrote:cwald wrote:Fine. But the bet is off.
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I reckon a betting shop would have still paid out.
(We call them bookmakers, are they called betting shops in the states, I couldn’t remember)
Well, yeah…but I would have lost my money. Ray changed the entire focus of the thread. It was the whole “gay death AIDS and tithing” comments that was going to get the thread locked down. We’ve been down that road.
With the revisions…it is actually a pretty good topic to discuss.
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