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So, let’s get back to the central issue of the post now, which is the issue of killing and why people see it differently – and how to deal with those differing views within the LDS church. 
We have hardcore pacifists and no-holds-barred militarists and pretty much every position between those extremes in the Church. How do we deal with that?
Old-Timer wrote:So, let’s get back to the central issue of the post now, which is the issue of killing and why people see it differently – and how to deal with those differing views within the LDS church.
We have hardcore pacifists and no-holds-barred militarists and pretty much every position between those extremes in the Church. How do we deal with that?
Most can and do find scriptural for both positions and somewhere in between.
I personally was deeply disappointed that Pres Hinkley effectively came out in favour of the war on Iraq.
At the time I was proud of Hinkley for his positions on Iraq. Not sure anymore.
I have been very pleased with the idea we will be completely out of Afghan and Iraq soon.
I would kill if necessary to defend my loved ones. I believe there is time for war. I believe a strong military discourages war.
I also believe there is a time for peace. I don’t complain about giving food and medical aid to our “enemies.” And I do not believe we need to police the world…but then it saddens me to see the way women are treated in the middle east…and I wonder if military action is necessary.
????
I guess, like my approach to the gods…the middle way seems to be a good fit…avoid extremes at both ends of the spectrum.
I don’t have a lot of answers.
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You know I’ve been revisiting Sherlock Holmes recently and “A Study in Scarlet” is interesting. Firstly, it’s the first meeting between Holmes and Watson, secondly, the novel has a curious antiMormon subplot (Brigham Young himself is a character), and thirdly, because at the beginning DR WATSON DESCRIBES HOW HE IS INVALIDED OUT OF THE BRITISH ARMY AFTER FIGHTING IN AFGHANISTAN!!! Who says history does not repeat itself? Quote:IN the year 1878 I took my degree of Doctor of Medicine of the University of London, and proceeded to Netley to go through the course prescribed for surgeons in the army. Having completed my studies there, I was duly attached to the Fifth Northumberland Fusiliers as Assistant Surgeon. The regiment was stationed in India at the time, and before I could join it, the second Afghan war had broken out. On landing
at Bombay, I learned that my corps had advanced through the passes, and was already deep in the enemy’s country. I followed, however, with many other officers who were in the same situation as myself, and succeeded in reaching Candahar in safety, where I found my regiment, and at once entered upon my new duties. The campaign brought honours and promotion to many, but for me it had nothing but misfortune and disaster. I was removed from my brigade and attached to the Berkshires, with whom I served at the fatal battle of Maiwand. There I was struck on the shoulder by a Jezail bullet, which shattered the bone and grazed the subclavian artery. I should have fallen into the hands of the murderous Ghazis had it not been for the devotion and courage shown by Murray, my orderly, who threw me across a pack-horse, and succeeded in bringing me safely to the British lines. Worn with pain, and weak from the prolonged hardships which I had undergone, I was removed, with a great train of wounded sufferers, to the base hospital at Peshawar. Here I rallied, and had already improved so far as to be able to walk about the wards, and even to bask a little upon the verandah, when I was struck down by enteric fever, that curse of our Indian possessions. For months my life was despaired of, and when at last I came to myself and became convalescent, I was so weak and emaciated that a medical board determined that not a day should be lost in sending me back to England. I was dispatched, accordingly, in the troopship “Orontes,” and landed a month later on Portsmouth jetty, with
my health irretrievably ruined, but with permission from a paternal government to spend the next nine months in attempting to improve it. I had neither kith nor kin in England, and was therefore as free as air—or as free as an income of eleven shillings and sixpence a day will permit a man to be. Under such circumstances, I naturally gravitated to London, that great cesspool into which all the loungers and idlers of the Empire are irresistibly drained. There I stayed for some time at a private hotel in the Strand, leading a comfortless, meaningless existence, and spending such money as I had, considerably more freely than I ought. So alarming did the state of my finances become, that I soon realized that I must either leave the metropolis and rusticate somewhere in the country, or that I must make a complete alteration in my style of living. Choosing the latter alternative, I began by making up my mind to leave the hotel, and to take up my quarters in some less pretentious and less expensive domicile.
Nobody at our level supports killing. Maybe somewhere in the Pentagon, or in a back office at Whitehall, or deep in the Kremlin, there are government types who get a lift out of it. But not any regular Joe. Not you, and not me. I joined my country’s armed forces as a younger man not because I wanted to go kill people, but because I wanted to serve my country, see a bit of the world, and join an elite fraternity. Enjoyed the hell out of it. Didn’t have to kill anyone. If you join the military though, that is what you are for. It’s supposed to be a killing machine. It is the iron fist, as opposed to the velvet glove (diplomacy). SamBee wrote:If you join the military though, that is what you are for. It’s supposed to be a killing machine. It is the iron fist, as opposed to the velvet glove (diplomacy).
No.
That would be like saying you become a police officer to kill.
Maybe you become solder to keep peace…prevent war and killing?
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I don’t think you join them in order to go off and kill, but you join them knowing that it is part of the job description. It’s like being a fire fighter. You’re probably going to end up in a burning building at some point, and may die there.
Okay sam, but what is your point? Should we be like the Jehovah Witness and have doctrine that prohibits serving in the military?
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As to the OP…I’m not sure I have apathy of killing because I support early term abortion in some circumstances, and support having a strong military as a peace tool, and I support using it when appropriate to save innocent lives? Yes…I would like to see the church put more money into humanitarian needs rather than temples and malls…and I would like to see a smaller military and I for the US to get out of the policing business in some areas…
But does that make me apathetic to killing?
I think there is a middle way here…somewhere between pacifist and greedy warmonger?
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I like that Cwlad! I agree, there is a middle way between enjoying and looking to kill and saying that it is a sin to kill at anytime. There are circumstances I believe that require that killing be an option, sad as that may be, but true. Let me just go on the record that I am conflicted on the matter – and could be therefore misunderstood as apathetic in the view of others. I do not support abortion per se, but I do support that option being available. I wonder who would care for all the millions of aborted babies if their mothers were forced to keep them. I also see various circumstances where this would be a personal and medically suggested course of action (as has already been noted). I also dislike the stretching of the term abortion to include the morning after pill and inter-uterine devices (IUD) – Even if these last two items are considered killing, I completely support them and valid family planning methods.
Euthanasia or Mercy Killing: I read about a pair of twins in another country that are deaf and about to go blind as well (may have also been partially paralyzed). They asked to legally end their life and were allowed to do so. I believe there are certain situations where people of sound mind might wish to die and I would want to respect that wish.
War – Military: Is any war is justified (WW2 or the Revolutionary war for example)? If some wars are justified because we like their results after the fact, then I believe it is very difficult for us to sit in judgment of war decisions in the moment. If WW2 was justified, then would a CIA operation to assassinate Hitler also be justified? If yes, then would some CIA operation to assassinate some dictator in our own day be justified? A reasonable person might conclude that we need more information in order to accurately judge. I only suggest that we as citizens often don’t get that information until long after the fact.
I’m not suggesting that we blindly follow our political and military leaders, but I am suggesting that we not tie their hands on situations where swift military action (yes, killing) may be warranted.
Death Penalty: I do not believe in the death penalty. I have this position not because of the sanctity of life but because of the cost in our current society and the finality of the execution. As a deterrent, I do not feel that the death penalty is any more formidable than life in prison. Death with all the mandatory appeals etc. is more expensive than life in prison. If someone who has been put to death is later proven to be innocent, the possibility for redress is severely limited (maybe some financial payout to the family of the deceased). I therefore would support the abolishment of the death penalty.
I am against killing in most other circumstances. But just as I draw my comfort line in one area, I fully understand that other honest individuals might draw their own line differently.
The OP asked how TBM’s can support killing. I think it might be important to point out that both the Bible and the BOM seem to support war and capital punishment. In some cases it appears that God is not only ok with the practice, but actually commands and requires it. I fully understand the complexities of the culture of the day and how God’s influence/inspiration gets filtered through the imperfect mind and assumptions of men, but I am not sure that most people that hold these books up to be “the word of God” can see the distinctions.
Featherina wrote:In discussing issues with TBM and non TBM, I’ve realized a common apathy or even blind encouragement for that which leads to death…
I don’t understand how anybody can so clearly support killing…The US has been in so many wars – most have been unjust…There has been a major increase in extreme poverty…Some are even going out of their way to support or even play a part in killing innocent children (developing human beings) through abortion…[Homosexuality portion deleted. Another thread had to be closed because of the exact same statements.] It doesn’t really bother me if the state executes criminals convicted of heinous crimes. Good riddance in my opinion even if it is generally much more expensive to go through all the appeals typically involved in death penalty cases than just keeping them locked up for life would be. Personally I never really saw abortion as being the same thing as murder but even if I did the problem with being too much of a zealot about it is the sheer number of people who will never agree and that see telling them they aren’t allowed to make this decision for themselves as a major infringement of their rights. There’s no such problem with actual murder where a strong majority will generally be outraged by it.
As far as I’m concerned what happens in Iraq and Afghanistan is not my problem. Other people are going to make their own decisions (many of them bad) regardless of what I do so I don’t really see the point of worrying too much about things I have no control over. Toppling Saddam Hussein’s regime and the Taliban was the easy part but trying to police countries full of fanatic terrorists year after year looks like it has turned out to be much more costly than they probably planned on going in. That’s why I doubt most U.S. politicians will be quite so gung-ho about the idea of invading another country any time soon. Also, I know some gay couples that have been together for years. So as long as they aren’t indiscriminately having unprotected sex on the side then it looks to me like their realistic chances of dying of AIDS is practically zero. That’s why I don’t really see the connection between homosexuality and death.
Roy wrote:Let me just go on the record that I am conflicted on the matter – and could be therefore misunderstood as apathetic in the view of others.
I do not support abortion per se, but I do support that option being available. I wonder who would care for all the millions of aborted babies if their mothers were forced to keep them. I also see various circumstances where this would be a personal and medically suggested course of action (as has already been noted). I also dislike the stretching of the term abortion to include the morning after pill and inter-uterine devices (IUD) – Even if these last two items are considered killing, I completely support them and valid family planning methods.
Euthanasia or Mercy Killing: I read about a pair of twins in another country that are deaf and about to go blind as well (may have also been partially paralyzed). They asked to legally end their life and were allowed to do so. I believe there are certain situations where people of sound mind might wish to die and I would want to respect that wish.
War – Military: Is any war is justified (WW2 or the Revolutionary war for example)? If some wars are justified because we like their results after the fact, then I believe it is very difficult for us to sit in judgment of war decisions in the moment. If WW2 was justified, then would a CIA operation to assassinate Hitler also be justified? If yes, then would some CIA operation to assassinate some dictator in our own day be justified? A reasonable person might conclude that we need more information in order to accurately judge. I only suggest that we as citizens often don’t get that information until long after the fact.
I’m not suggesting that we blindly follow our political and military leaders, but I am suggesting that we not tie their hands on situations where swift military action (yes, killing) may be warranted.
Death Penalty: I do not believe in the death penalty. I have this position not because of the sanctity of life but because of the cost in our current society and the finality of the execution. As a deterrent, I do not feel that the death penalty is any more formidable than life in prison. Death with all the mandatory appeals etc. is more expensive than life in prison. If someone who has been put to death is later proven to be innocent, the possibility for redress is severely limited (maybe some financial payout to the family of the deceased). I therefore would support the abolishment of the death penalty.
I am against killing in most other circumstances. But just as I draw my comfort line in one area, I fully understand that other honest individuals might draw their own line differently.
The OP asked how TBM’s can support killing. I think it might be important to point out that both the Bible and the BOM seem to support war and capital punishment. In some cases it appears that God is not only ok with the practice, but actually commands and requires it. I fully understand the complexities of the culture of the day and how God’s influence/inspiration gets filtered through the imperfect mind and assumptions of men, but I am not sure that most people that hold these books up to be “the word of God” can see the distinctions.
Wow, I’ve never heard a TBM call an IUD a form of abortion?! That’s a little extreme…
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