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wjclerk wrote:
I would much rather love and respect my father for what he does to help me grow up, rather than fearing he will take off his belt and whip me for disobeying him. Why is obedience stressed so much more than love and growth? Obey or perish!
I think God has to revert to the “Do this or else” mentality when his people have repeatedly ignored him or disobeyed him.
I had to revert to this kind of authoritarian, fear-based leadership in my home for a while over the issue of house-cleaning. Nothing else I tried work — not teaching, not training, not warning, not loving — nothing worked. So, I laid down the law to at least get the household into a
minimal state of order. It would’t surprise me that God does the same when all other kinder methods have failed.
I can’t sit idly by while the term ‘agnostic’ gets dragged through the mud again. 🙂 An agnostic is simply someone who believes that some ‘truths’ are unknown or unknowable. I think that describes me pretty well, a lot of others here, and a lot of other people who may not have given it sufficient thought yet.wjclerk wrote:The problem I see with the “buffet” approach is, where does it end?
It doesn’t. You are consigned to a life of thinking for yourself. Consider yourself fortunate.
SilentDawning wrote:I think God has to revert to the “Do this or else” mentality when his people have repeatedly ignored him or disobeyed him.
Does it work? In the case of Jonah and Ninevah, the answer is “yes.” Most other places, the answer seems to be “no.” Did Israel listen to Moses and work out their bad habits from living in the land of Egypt for generations while wandering in the desert? No, they had to wait for an entire generation to just die out rather than change from the inside. God, the all-powerful, couldn’t combat their “natural man” any other way than just death? They were too far gone to “rescue” and had to just pass away for a new generation to take their place? We currently want to believe that God will work
with usto overcome our frailties and problems. Earlier generations seemed more often to have a different method to have to contend with. Did the Jews righteous-up after Isaiah, Nehemiah, Jeremiah, etc. cried repentance to them? Did the Nephites listen and avert their destruction before it was too late? Did the Jews of Jesus’ day, who had the actual
Son of Godphysically with them, performing miracles right and left, change and become a righteous people dedicated more to their God than to what was written about him? No, 40 years later they lost their spiritual center and were spread to the four winds without even a homeland to call their own until almost 2000 years later. It seems we get the stick a lot more often than we get the carrot. wjclerk wrote:…
The problem I see with the “buffet” approach is, where does it end? Where does our ability/authority to interpret something in scripture change not only the personal meaning for us, but become a new (maybe different from the orthodox) doctrinethat the Church feels is a threat to its right to declare what is official doctrine for the people and what is false? How many other denominations – Christian, Mormon, etc. ad infinitum – have had splinter groups spring up over sometimes subtle, nuanced readings or reconstructionsof what the orthodox, original group put forth as true doctrines? If I start reading into scripture my own interpretations of what is being said by the author – if it varies with the established or “common” understanding – am I setting myself up as a new authority (albeit a personal one) for how any given text should be really understood? I just don’t want to get on a slippery slope that I have seen so many start down where they begin interpreting everything in their own way and lose the “rightness” or truthfulness of what is the true intent of Godin inspiring it to be written. Am I potentially setting myself up for apostasy this way?
The way I see it, if God really wanted everyone to believe the same thing then he probably should have revealed “the truth” in a way that would sound more credible and consistent to sincere truth-seekers with the best possible intentions. Basically, I don’t see why any kind of god that is worth worrying about should really blame me for not believing in stories about talking donkeys, Noah’s Ark, the Tower of Babel, etc. Also, I don’t know how much of a problem it is really is if people end up believing something that is wrong in cases where you can’t see much harm being done by it directly. If the expected harm or payoffs attached to a particular belief are supposedly mostly going to happen in the next life then I’d rather let people believe whatever they want to because I just don’t have much confidence that anyone really knows for sure what exactly is going to happen when we die.
I think the buffet approach typically ends is when people find an explanation that makes sense to them and feel comfortable with it. Sure it’s possible that some people could easily misinterpret what some of these scriptures were supposed to mean but I don’t know that there’s much we can really do about that now when the original authors are not around to clarify things. The LDS prophets and apostles have had plenty of time to set the record straight but it doesn’t look to me like they have really done that as much as simply adding even more contradictions and sources of confusion to the mix. So, like it or not, I felt like I had no other choice but to look elsewhere for answers and come up with some answers on my own.
wjclerk wrote:We currently want to believe that God will work
with usto overcome our frailties and problems. Earlier generations seemed more often to have a different method to have to contend with.
I wanted to revisit this one idea in the context of what has been said here. I think I am understanding better the concept of needing to find our own way to “the truth” (for us) rather than there being one, central, universal truth that can be equally acknowledged by everyone. It seems like this is what we are eventually headed for after the Second Coming, but how that will come about without violating anyone’s free agency is beyond my ability to imagine at this point.
I am wondering if this concept of what God really wants – to have a personal relationship with each person and to help them personally to grow and overcome their individual frailties – can come to you any other way than personal revelation? I don’t feel comfortable accessing that particular path right now. I gave up personal prayer a few months ago when I felt that the phrase “the heavens are brass” really applied to me and that any prayer thoughts I sent up were just uni-directional and I was incapable (or maybe unwilling) to get anything back. I don’t feel it is possible
for meto have a personal relationship with God any more than I could expect to walk into the White House and get a one-on-one counseling session with the President whenever I wanted. Why shouldn’t he be too busy/too far removed to have a personal relationship with me?I don’t see 6 billion individual’s worths being able to command the individual attention of a God personally. He would be too busy with all the rest of the universe to bother with me. Yes, you could say I have an inferiority complex. But how do you get around it? Especially when it doesn’t seem currently possible to get any kind of answer (for me). Has anyone else ever had to deal with this, or am I the only one???
wjclerk wrote:I don’t want to be a traitor. I don’t want to be a son of perdition. But I don’t know how this God is worthy of our adulation and worship. Can anyone help?
The image of God created by traditional religious thought was influenced largely by political/controling motives. So, I completely understand not feeling spiritual about such a God. Although many scriptures were corrupt, I still think there are some golden truths… like GOD IS LOVE. I think love is hoping & striving for what is best, through active faith (trial & error). So… is LOVE worthy of worship? Yes! But still – it’s trial & error – a learning process to figure out what love means in any given situation.
Quote:Why shouldn’t he be too busy/too far removed to have a personal relationship
with me?I don’t see 6 billion individual’s worths being able to command the individual attention of a God personally. He would be too busy with all the rest of the universe to bother with me. Yes, you could say I have an inferiority complex. But how do you get around it? Especially when it doesn’t seem currently possible to get any kind of answer (for me). Has anyone else ever had to deal with this, or am I the only one???
Yes, I have struggled with that… & still do sometimes. My issue was realizing that God, or my experience (“kingdom”) of God was within me (Luke 17:22). First, it was depressing. I thought, “So God – my dearest confidant – is just in my imagination??” I’m having to search the depth of my soul to find faith in myself… & in spiritual energy. It’s both humbling & empowering.So… to answer your question how God could never be too busy to bother with you… God is unconditional love. God is like the sun… it’s never too busy to shine on you, right? Even at night, or if you block out the sun, it’s still there. I don’t understand it – but God/LOVE is even more than the sun… God is like the dark/invisible matter/energy that makes up & permeates 95% of the universe. It is not seen, but known by it’s influence (remind you of faith?). So, God is always loving you, & all of creation… God can’t help it – God IS LOVE.
If we don’t feel it, it’s because we’re not tuning in. Find something you resonate with… music, somebody you love or who loved you, a great memory, nature…. however you connect & feel good.
Featherina- I love your sun analogy.
I live in an area where it rains ten months out of the year. We really don’t see sun for a long time. We envy people with snow, because even if it’s cold, they still see sun. And if it’s too cold to go out. Just to have it stream through a window is miraculous. Living here has been a great lesson in the analogy of God, the spirit, whatever you choose to equate it with. Because even when it’s raining and we see no sun, the day is lighter than the night, but not light enough to make you feel as warm and energized as when it’s fully sunny. Shining sun also effects the way something looks, even the tree in your yard looks different when the sun shines on it or through it. It’s still the same tree, same branches, same leaves or bareness, but it changes. You see it differently.
It’s very hard to explain it unless you have lived in it. I grew up in a very sunny place and had no idea what constant clouds and rain felt like or looked like. Or how it affected the world. Now I do. And as lonely and dreary and enduring as it seems it has taught me a metaphor for my relationship with God and the spirit. So great job Featherina.
I like the sun analogy, and I like this part… Quote:It’s still the same tree, same branches, same leaves or bareness, but it changes. You see it differently
Nice stuff!
I really appreciate your thoughtful comments and helpful attitudes. I’m concerned that some of the questions I am asking (or perhaps the way I am asking them) may not be in spirit with the “StayLDS” purpose? I think some of what I’ve said may be seen as attacking the faith, experiences, or concepts of people who have been able to work out their relationship with God. I don’t want to knock that. I see that as my ultimate aim of where I would like to see this line of questing lead. If I have given anyone the impression that I am antagonistic towards their faith or beliefs, I would like to apologize. Having said that, I do have one more thought I came across that I’d like to air. If I am indeed engaged in something that is not in line with the mission of this site, I’d invite a moderator to contact me directly and I’ll be sure to be on my best behavior. I was listening to the 2007 (I think) Sunstone symposium on “Inoculating the Saints” with several panelists whom I am familiar with. One who was new to me was setting the stage and rhetorically asked “what is a problem?” faced by the Church. He stated a problem that secular humanists have with our theological thinking that I thought was interesting: (I typed this from listening to the podcast)
Quote:“It would be teaching a little boy that it makes a difference to speak to an invisible, absentee father, who has all power and supposedly loves him dearly, but for the kid’s own good apparently never talks to him, never visits him, never sends him presents at Christmas or his birthday. In other words, teaching a kid to pray – bringing up a child in the world – to believe in God.”
I grew up as an only child who was abandoned by his father when he was 6 months old. In spite of having the ability to find me and show support for my growing up years alone with my mother, he never contacted me or made any attempt to involve himself in my life. The worst day of the year each year for me was “Father’s Day,” where everyone else would send cards or give presents and honor their relationship to their father, but I was all alone.
I know the standard Evangelical Christian argument that God is all around us and we just need to reach out to him to feel his love. For those who have fairly normal family relationships, that may not be too hard to do. But I feel abandoned, and all the evidence seems to support that conclusion. If God really loved me and wanted to help me, wouldn’t he be able to find a way to make himself known to his lost children, not just those who always believed in Primary lessons and never doubt he’s there for them?
We can talk about anything here, even to vent a bit, as long as it stays constructive. Don’t let the deleting of the recent post worry you. That was a very different situation – very different altogether.
Thanks, Mom3! I agree, that the sun sheds a special light on everything! I was reading how some ancient civilizations used to worship the sun, & I’ve always thought it interesting how the words Son & Sun sound the same. I received this cool email a while back about different suns… even how large our sun is, it is like a pea, compared to other suns out there! The universe (& beyond) is amazing!
Speaking of the brightness of the sun… this song by Colbie Caillat, reminds me of God’s love…
wjclerk wrote:I really appreciate your thoughtful comments and helpful attitudes. I’m concerned that some of the questions I am asking (or perhaps the way I am asking them) may not be in spirit with the “StayLDS” purpose? I think some of what I’ve said may be seen as attacking the faith, experiences, or concepts of people who have been able to work out their relationship with God. I don’t want to knock that. I see that as my ultimate aim of where I would like to see this line of questing lead. If I have given anyone the impression that I am antagonistic towards their faith or beliefs, I would like to apologize. Having said that, I do have one more thought I came across that I’d like to air. If I am indeed engaged in something that is not in line with the mission of this site, I’d invite a moderator to contact me directly and I’ll be sure to be on my best behavior.
I was listening to the 2007 (I think) Sunstone symposium on “Inoculating the Saints” with several panelists whom I am familiar with. One who was new to me was setting the stage and rhetorically asked “what is a problem?” faced by the Church. He stated a problem that secular humanists have with our theological thinking that I thought was interesting: (I typed this from listening to the podcast)
Quote:“It would be teaching a little boy that it makes a difference to speak to an invisible, absentee father, who has all power and supposedly loves him dearly, but for the kid’s own good apparently never talks to him, never visits him, never sends him presents at Christmas or his birthday. In other words, teaching a kid to pray – bringing up a child in the world – to believe in God.”
I grew up as an only child who was abandoned by his father when he was 6 months old. In spite of having the ability to find me and show support for my growing up years alone with my mother, he never contacted me or made any attempt to involve himself in my life. The worst day of the year each year for me was “Father’s Day,” where everyone else would send cards or give presents and honor their relationship to their father, but I was all alone.
I know the standard Evangelical Christian argument that God is all around us and we just need to reach out to him to feel his love. For those who have fairly normal family relationships, that may not be too hard to do. But I feel abandoned, and all the evidence seems to support that conclusion. If God really loved me and wanted to help me, wouldn’t he be able to find a way to make himself known to his lost children, not just those who always believed in Primary lessons and never doubt he’s there for them?
Wjclerk,I think the way you phrased it was just fine, in staying with this forum’s purpose.
You’re questioning from the perspective of a LDS – that’s what we’re doing here.
Cooincidentally, I was recently wondering something similar – how our parents treated us, we tend to assume others (especially God) esteem us.
It would be easier for someone who felt loved by their parents to believe in that love, than someone who didn’t feel loved growing up.
This supports the idea that “The kingdom (experience/interpretation) of God is within us.”
But how do we change such ingrained beliefs… even stemming from childhood?
I don’t think it happens over night.
But if we keep reminding ourselves that how people treat us (including our parents) is not about our value or lovability – it’s about t
heirability to love. Yes, we can say or do some things that make us easier to love – like if we show we care about others (since every relationship is give & take).
Of course, as babies, we didn’t do much – so ideally, our parents loved us just for being our sleepy, eating, pooping selves.
🙂 If our parents didn’t show the love we needed, being the co-dependent, self-centered way all children are, we assumed it was because there was something wrong with us, when really, it was our parents’ inability to love as we needed.
Being neglected as a child, may seem like an emotional (& spiritual) disability. It has for me, yet now, because of it, I’m learning that the love I feel for or from others – is always within me, & depends on my interpretation (thoughts that produce feelings). “Know the truth & the truth shall set you free.” Consider how freeing it would be if people didn’t worry so much about impressing others! We still care & consider how others feel, but their approval is not life or death. To feel God’s love, we must learn to love ourselves, &
loveloving ourselves & others… believing in our lovability & treating ourselves with love in thought, word & behavior. I’ve also wondered why & how a loving God would ignore so many peoples’ needs, especially when I witnessed such extreme poverty in other countries. I believe that prayer doesn’t change things, it changes people & people change things. I don’t completely understand prayer – because I know it affects, me, but I’ve also witnessed it directly affecting others (esp. my child one particular time). So, my theory is that when we pray – with our heart & soul – we tap into the subconsious or spirituality like a radio wave – which is transmitted to anybody else in tune with that spiritual radio wave. If others are not in tune, or don’t act on it, it’s not because of God’s lack of love – it’s because of peoples’ lack of love.
Hi Wjclerk, wjclerk wrote:I’m concerned that some of the questions I am asking (or perhaps the way I am asking them) may not be in spirit with the “StayLDS” purpose? I think some of what I’ve said may be seen as attacking the faith, experiences, or concepts of people who have been able to work out their relationship with God. I don’t want to knock that. I see that as my ultimate aim of where I would like to see this line of questing lead. If I have given anyone the impression that I am antagonistic towards their faith or beliefs, I would like to apologize.
As someone to whom you may have directed your questions, allow me to respond. I feel that at the core you were asking how I can reconcile the relationship I have found with my Heavenly Father with certain scriptures and/or their modern interpretations that say that my relationship should be different. My answer: That the revelations given to men long ago, interpreted by their particular worldview and culture, sometimes penned for political and religious purposes, and then passed down for over a millennia, translated time and again with potential for corruption each time – Do Not take precedence over my own personal revelation and relationship discovery.
I do not need to reconcile the two. Some may find the ability and freedom in parsing to make it fit, but I find it easier to just let some of those things go. Furthermore, I understand the Church completely supports my prerogative to receive personal revelation about my personal relationship as long as I don’t go about proclaiming it as though my personal revelation applied to anyone else. (Hopefully anonymous postings on the internet do not count as proclamations)
Almost a year ago when I was just new to StayLDS, I wrote:
Quote:In writing, I have attempted to gather some semblance of order to the jumbled pulsating mass that my life was once built upon. Even now, in writing here, you are acting as a sounding board for my thoughts. I have co-opted you to become part of the rebuilding process.
In playing Devil’s Advocate, or asking “Yeah – but what if…?” – You are doing me a favor, because you are helping me to grow. The wind that must be strained against is as helpful to growth and progress as sun and water. There is little growth and discovery and progress by surrounding yourself with “Yes, men.” I have no interest in constructing another house of cards.
I wise friend wrote:
Quote:I see true “fulfilment” as “perfect balance” – being “complete, whole, fully developed” in such a way that nothing can tip or knock down that with is fulfilled. It’s being able to walk upright and steadily among the most severe storms – not being able to be “tossed to and fro by every wind of (whatever)”. It’s being blindsided but able to remain standing, so to speak. This means we are willing to “be unbalanced” in the eyes of others as long as we have viewed all alternatives and chosen “a balance” that works for us individually. Thus, two “balanced” people can be positioned at very different positions relative to each other
At some point in the future, I may encounter another challenge of like magnitude to the faith crisis catalyst that brought me here in the first place. I want to be ready, and I want to be able to provide support and love to others when they are similarly breaking – a metaphorical rock in their whirlwind. Also, it is perfectly OK for my position to seem “unbalanced” to others
:crazy: , It is working for me and is providing the framework I need at this point in my life. I make small modifications to my understanding daily as I experience more and assimilate those experiences. I also reserve the right to trade up to a larger “planter box” should I need to.Featherina wrote:How people treat us (including our parents) is not about our value or lovability – it’s about their ability to love. If our parents didn’t show the love we needed, being the co-dependent, self-centered way all children are, we assumed it was because there was something wrong with us, when really, it was our parents’ inability to love as we needed.
Being neglected as a child, may seem like an emotional (& spiritual) disability. It has for me, yet now, because of it, I’m learning that the love I feel for or from others – is always within me, & depends on my interpretation (thoughts that produce feelings). “Know the truth & the truth shall set you free.” Consider how freeing it would be if people didn’t worry so much about impressing others! We still care & consider how others feel, but their approval is not life or death. To feel God’s love, we must learn to love ourselves, & love loving ourselves & others… believing in our lovability & treating ourselves with love in thought, word & behavior.
I love this post Featherina. It reminds me of the song “What Love Really Means” by JJ Heller.
Quote:He’s waiting to die as he sits all alone
He’s a man in a cell who regrets what he’s done
He utters a cry from the depths of his soul
“Oh Lord, forgive me. I wanna go home”
Then he heard a voice somewhere deep inside
And it said “I know you’ve murdered
And I know you’ve lied
And I’ve watched you suffer all of your life
And now that you’ll listen I’ll, I’ll tell you that I…”
I will love you for you
Not for what you have done or what you will become
I will love you for you
I will give you the love, the love that you never knew
Mileage may vary…
Roy wrote:At some point in the future, I may encounter another challenge of like magnitude to the faith crisis catalyst that brought me here in the first place. I want to be ready, and I want to be able to provide support and love to others when they are similarly breaking – a metaphorical rock in their whirlwind. Also, it is perfectly OK for my position to seem “unbalanced” to others
:crazy: , It is working for me and is providing the framework I need at this point in my life. I make small modifications to my understanding daily as I experience more and assimilate those experiences. I also reserve the right to trade up to a larger “planter box” should I need to.Well put, Roy!
My perspectives may sometimes seem unbalanced to others too – but it’s ok.
Lately, I feel so excited by new perspectives, I don’t worry so much what others think about me thinking differently.
I especially like the idea that we can trade up… we’re works in progress.
Quote:I love this post Featherina. It reminds me of the song “What Love Really Means” by JJ Heller.
Thanks. That’s a beautiful song – I was surprised you knew it too!
🙂 Kudos…Featherina!
Quote:Lately, I feel so excited by new perspectives, I don’t worry so much what others think about me thinking differently.
I especially like the idea that we can trade up… we’re works in progress.
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