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I have a non-mem friend who has very close dealings with three Mormons — myself (I consider myself a middle of the road guy,) another guy who has a narcissistic personality disorder and drinks, married a non-member after his temple marriage failed, and is no longer connected, And a balanced, straight-arrow Mormon who used to be in our Stake Presidency. This non-mem was talking to me at length — for several hours last night on the phone after calling me. With questions. He wanted to know why I joined the church in the first place. He was also curious why none of the three of us have ever approached him about joining the church since Mormons have such a reputation for proselyting. He said he was amazed that we never try to recruit him.
He also expressed some surprise at the liberality of hte ex-Stake Presidency guy we both know. For example, he drinks non-alcoholic beer at social events, which raises eyebrows because people think it’s the real thing. The guy will swear occasionally.
There were many times when I had to decide just how much to tell this non-member about the LDS church. I no longer feel the same desire to whitewash, or present the pristine image of the church as I did in TBM days. When situations like these put me squarely in member-missionary mode.
But it got me thinking — given your unorthodoxy, your ability to see both sides of the church, perhaps your lessened loyalty (if that exists), any doubt you may have, and your research and experiences, how much of your true beliefs do you share with non-members? Do you stick with the textbook answers? Viewing all interactions as missionary opportunities? Do you present a balanced spiritual and temporal approach? Do you actively proselyte? How much of the naked truth do you share with non-members?
I’m not. I could count the non-members who know about my church on one hand. The only time I go vaguely TBM is with investigators.
I don’t go out of my way to talk about the church, but when it comes up, I’m not bashful about it. If people have questions, I answer them as candidly as possible and I don’t whitewash. I present the facts as I understand them and I let them decide for themselves. I don’t push or pressure. I don’t preach. I don’t testify, except to investigators or in church, and only on things I genuinely believe. And most importantly, I never act as if I have nothing to learn from them, spiritually. TBH, I’m probably more candid with non-members than members. I can count on one hand how many active members I’ve told IRL (one is Sheldon
I currently work for a VERY Christian company. Everyone I know who works here is very open about their religious beliefs. There are many different denominations, although the smaller, fringe groups seem to be the most popular. They’re not allowed to ask directly about it during the interview, but because of the questions asked and statements made, you could tell it was important to them. Since “BYU” is listed on my resume, I think I was hired in part for being a Mormon (Christian). It’s a great group to be a part of. I’ve had several religious discussions, that my boss has initiated. He hasn’t directly asked about being a “Mormon”, but has made the assumption of being a Christian, discussed the “commandments”, had a good talk about “grace”. I like to build up good relations by finding common ground. I try to be as honest, but I don’t like making people feel “uncomfortable”. Hence, when we talk about “God”, I don’t bring up how different out views and definitions may be. If asked, I would simply explain, I grew up Mormon and am grateful for what it taught me. I still attend with my wife, but God has led me down a different path. I am at peace where I’m at, and excited to see where I’m going.
If a member of the Church asks, yes, I am a Mormon. To my fellow Christians, I would probably stick to calling myself a “non-denominational Christian with Mormon affiliations”. To my atheist friends, I will likely identify as an atheist with a favorable view towards religion. To my fellow Buddhists, I will identify as Buddhist as well. To the Muslims, I will tell them how much I love the Q’ran, how they’ve got all Christians beat on prayer, and “If God called any man to be a prophet, he would’ve called Mohammad.” I can say any of those things with complete honesty, and find it builds up relationships more than anything. What I wouldn’t say, is that I am a “Post-Mormon light-deist mostly-atheist Muslim-Christian-Buddhist-Humanist” (a PMLDMAMCBH, if you will).
If any non-member asks questions, I’d do my best to give them the most honest, unbiased answers I can. But I’m not going to proselytize either for or against the Church. And I am religiously against arguing about religion.
Very, but I don’t push at all, and I don’t bring up general things I see as issues, unless I think it is critical in a particular situation (like if the person is LGBTQ+). I am 100% honest and open about the good and the bad. Old Timer wrote:
Very, but I don’t push at all, and I don’t bring up general things I see as issues, unless I think it is critical in a particular situation (like if the person is LGBTQ+).
An glad to hear this, and from Squarepeg and others who are forthright. There are times I feel I am being disloyal or somehow even apostate for not being careful about the realistic side of the church. Again, I am not negative about it, but candid about what it’s really like to be a Mormon — at least, from my perspective. As well as honest answers to questions that don’t whitewash
In the end, I guess I’m just being authentic. It’s easier to be authentic with non-members than with members. This seems to be particularly true when the non-members are not investigating and have no ties to the local leadership or membership.
I tell people I am LDS and that I go to church on weekends. I try to answer any questions as honestly and tailored to the perception of the person asking the question. I try to gather background information to discern what the question really is, and if possible, the intent behind the question(s).
I do focus a lot on saying things like “this is my understanding” etc.
I also make sure to note that I consider myself a Christian and apply Christian principles in my life in my conversations. Mostly because 1) I believe I am a Christian (Mormon subset) 2) most people I meet consider themselves Christian as well so it is common ground.
When talking to non-members / non-investigators I describe the church from a secular standpoint. “Sure, we have some weird beliefs but we also have a strong support community that believes in clean living, hard work, and helping each other out in hard times.” Recently I was asked about the WoW. I discussed how it originated in a revelation at the time of the temperance movement in the US and appears to be influenced by that. Originally it was seen as good advice but not taken as prohibitive. Later in the Utah period it became a requirement to be considered a member in good standing. Now it is an important marker of loyalty and belonging for LDS membership.
I generally don’t talk about it. It only comes up when I mention my kids are at the Y or when I turn down drinks. What a great subject for a thread, and what excellent responses so far! For years now (roughly 10), I have participated on a couple of forums where one of the main topics of discussion is religion, more specifically, but not exclusively, Christianity. Neither of these forums is a “Christian” forum, but most of my interactions are with other Christians or former Christians. I started posting from a kind of an apologetic frame of mind, but have modified my approach as time has gone on. I never, ever, ever proselytize, but I have to admit that when someone shows an interest, I feel a little excitement.
Mainly, I post now for two purposes: (1) to correct misleading information and outright lies that are clearly intended to damage the reputation of the Church and (2) to present the face of a 69-year-old Mormon woman who is a staunch supporter of LGBT rights and is not afraid to speak her mind, even when it means disagreeing with Church policy. I guess you’d say that I like to be seen as representing those things about Mormonism that I feel are good, while letting people know that I don’t believe that the Church or its leaders are, by any means, perfect. I have found that my approach has been, for the most part, extremely effective. People on these forums have learned that they can trust me for accurate answers to the sometimes difficult questions. I don’t whitewash anything but I don’t badmouth the Church either. For instance, I have been very forthright in acknowledging racism in the Church (particularly prior to 1978), and saying that, in my opinion, the Priesthood ban was simply not of God. But when people say things like, “Mormons believed for years, and some still do, that Blacks are sub-human and the spawn of Satan,” I set them straight, and am not always particularly nice in doing so.
😳 A lot of the way I talk to people is based upon how they treat me and how sincere and genuine they are in the questions they ask. I am not inclined to be very patient with jerks, but will generally bend over backwards to explain what we believe and why to people who are respectful. I can become an “offender for a word” as easily as my opponent in a debate, but I would much prefer civil, honest conversation. I’m also always looking for common ground. I’m really kind of surprised at how many people I have talked to over the years whom I believe really do have a better understanding of and respect for Mormonism because of their interactions with me. Unfortunately, there have been times when I have been pushed over the edge and completely lose my cool. I hate it when that happens, but it does from time to time.
amy J wrote: Quote:I also make sure to note that I consider myself a Christian and apply Christian principles in my life in my conversations. Mostly because 1) I believe I am a Christian (Mormon subset) 2) most people I meet consider themselves Christian as well so it is common ground
This is where I start when ever discussing religion with any other denomination of Christian. Otherwise, I will try to build on common ground. I am trying to focus on the gospel of JC more than the Church as an institution. This helps me to (1), focus on what is at the core of my values and principles, and (2) Build on common beliefs that I hold with other Christians. On Saturday I had a Spanish discussion with Jehovah’s Witnesses who knocked on the door. I spoke to them candidly and openly about what I disagreed with them on and why. But, we left the conversation agreeing on many things, that Jesus would return, and that the millennium would take place on this earth that God’s children would inherit, but I think I confused them when I stated that it would be elevated to a Celestial sphere at the end of the 1,000 years. I realized that my scriptures were correct, I just could not remember chapter and verse like I did when I was on a mission. I enjoyed testifying that Christ has redeemed my soul and that those who believe in Christ and serve him would be saved, and become like God and inherit all that he has since his possessions are infinite. They challenged me on exaltation although I backed it up with the book of Revelation, but did not mention the doctrine by name. I candidly disagreed with them about the 144,000. I asked them if they were among the 144,000? I indicated that we have one thing agreed, that none of us could say we were among the 144,000, but I reminded them it was a representative number of 12,000 high priests, 12,000 from each tribe and it was not the maximum amount of people that would be saved.
But I tried to focus on Christ, the Church he established with 12 apostles and apostolic authority and that revelation directs his church just as Peter received revelation in the Bible. I almost segued into the Church, but by then we ran out of time, and I told them I enjoyed our conversation, but they did not need to “wast time with me” but should go see pagans and hypocrites and preach to them. I wanted to end there since I just moved to the area, and I am sure they would return since we did not contend.
I don’t wear the fact that I’m Mormon on my sleeve. The neighbors know, but mostly because of my wife and kids and because we’ve all been neighbors a long time. There is a newer neighbor kitty-corner across the street, they probably don’t know unless someone else told them. (I don’t, however, think it’s a topic of conversation among the neighbors.) As far as work and other relationships go, some people figure it out (kid at BYU or on a mission, although I usually don’t call it a mission when I say I have a kid in Brazil or if I do I don’t specify LDS mission). I’d say most of my immediate co-workers don’t know and probably don’t care. I’ve only been at this job about 4 months and nobody has said anything. In prior jobs I have occasionally been asked questions and I simply answer them. I try to be truthful in those answers and not just give the party line. If asked if anyone is paid I say yes and explain in as much detail as they seem to want. If asked about the Book of Mormon I tell them it’s a good book that focuses on Christ and I think it can bring people closer to God and Christ. If they ask for a BoM I give them one (I don’t offer unless they ask). I have told a few people in the past that I am a practicing Mormon but I don’t necessarily buy into everything – on one has ever questioned that further. The sisters missionaries (it’s always sisters, never the elders) ask at dinner if we’ll share something with a friend or give away a BoM or whatever. I never commit and tell them directly that my way of doing missionary work is to set a good example and try to be a good Christian and if somebody notices and asks I answer.
All that said, I don’t think I have ever encountered an anti who is just looking for fuel. I would probably still be honest, but would sidestep questions about whether I believe the BoM to be true or whatever.
(BTW, If they ask about different versions of the First Vision, I get the 1970s Ensign that everyone has laying on their coffee tables and let them read it.
😈 )jamison wrote:
On Saturday I had a Spanish discussion with Jehovah’s Witnesses who knocked on the door.
I suppose I get defensive of the JW’s around my Mormon acquaintances. I believe it is because we are keen to pick on their odd doctrines while ignoring (or proclaiming) our own. Yes, JW’s have several points of doctrine that involve cherry picking a particular set of bible verses, removing them from context, and then squinting at them sideways. As do we Mormons.
DW and I met with the JW’s for several months. I believe that they felt that I was a golden convert because I was respectful and interested. Perhaps I was too good at speaking “sheepese”. There was no point to argue. Their beliefs seemed to be one possible way to interpret the bible. It seemed like a fairly valid, internally consistent method and I could see how it could be beneficial to adherents. I could study their beliefs and worldview while keeping it separate from the Mormon worldview or my own personal beliefs (like the DC comics universe from the Marvel universe).
Ultimately, they stopped coming around because I opened up to them that I do not believe the bible to be the literal word of God or the events (like Adam and Eve) to be literal historical events. I believe in them to be more metaphorical, spiritual parables, and wisdom literature than to be read and understood literally. That seemed to really crush their motivation to visit me because so much of their religion seems to come from some fairly zealous following of certain bible passages.
If you Bible bash with them then that means that you take the Bible as an authoritative source for truth. If you take the Bible as an authoritative source for truth then, by their reckoning, you may be halfway to becoming a Jehovah’s Witness.
Roy, I have an acquaintance (former co-worker) who is JW and we’re close enough that we have had some candid conversations about each of our churches and some beliefs. She thought, for instance, that Mormons can go to BYU for free (some do, of course). At any rate, I agree with you – much of what she and I have discussed could just be different ways we interpret (or sometimes ignore) the same things. I have known a few JWs over my life, and I can’t say that they have been anything other than good people. They come around knocking every now and again and I tell them at the door that I am Mormon (even when I was inactive) and I am always happy to talk about Christ with anyone who wants to – but you’re wasting your time if you think I’m going to convert. Some will come in a chat, most just leave. Only once has one tried more of a hard sell and I ended up asking him to leave (just on the porch, not inside, and interestingly what he was talking about was the BoM which I don’t generally defend). I suppose I would be that way with any other church. I’m not sold on the need for the true church or any other church anyway, and I could just as soon not be part of any church – IOW, I’m not converting to anything else. FWIW, if I did not attend LDS services and really felt the need to have some sort of service I’d probably go to a Unitarian meeting.
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