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Hey everyone, totally new to forums and boards and all that. But I don’t know what else to do and I need to get my thoughts down. I’m 25, Happily Temple Married, RM, with a 10 month old son and one more due in December. I don’t know what it means to “know” anymore. I began thinking about the basis of my testimony, which is spiritual evidence or witnesses from time to time about specific things or events. Then I wondered what a Muslim or Buddhist or Jew or anyone else’s basis for their testimony was – and it’s likely the same thing. You couldn’t convince me that Islam was true any more than I could convince an Muslim that Mormonism was true, though we each felt that we “knew” – and more importantly that our knowing had similar foundations. This completely undermines my belief that the LDS church is “the only true and living church”, because I have no reliable way of knowing that, nor does anyone in my opinion. I’m told that the spirit will confirm truth to me after following a carefully defined prescription or method to receiving results, but that is no different than the method for receiving a witness about anything else or any other religion.
At any moment in time, no matter what I believe, about half of the planet believes that I’m going to be damned to hell, and no one has any more solid footing than the other to support those claims.
If I had to pick a set of doctrines that I wanted to be true, most of them would be found in the LDS church: Eternal families, emphasis on love and kindness, peace and relief from mistakes and sins, supernatural guidance and decision aids, close community of shared values, etc.. The only thing is, I don’t “know” anymore, and I feel like I’ve lost part of my identity. I hope it’s true, I really do. But I don’t know, and I’ll likely never know again. I could believe, but belief is not a costless choice either. If I choose to believe in this church, then I ascribe to the notion that all other faiths are false and assume the world view associated with it. I ascribe to all of the procedural and political aspects of the church that I disagree with. The church by it’s very design is all or nothing – true or false – and there’s no room for an in-betweener like me.
Appreciate any comments or insight from anyone who has reconciled a similar dilemma, or how you approach it.
Thanks
Welcome to the forum, jamie. Having a faith crisis can be rough. I’ve come to realize in my life that spiritual knowledge has to be bases on faith, which faith is about belief. There are many people on this site and in the church that only came to the point that they believe, not that they know. Regardless of what other people think, if you can only say you believe, instead of you know, just leave it at that. The church can still use people like you and I believe you will still know spiritually. Again, welcome to the forum. Welcome Jamie… I hope you find this a good place to “figure” things out. Although, I am finding that there never is an end to finding truth. This is a good place for me to get new ideas to build on, a place to rid myself of limiting beliefs and black and white thinking. Welcome, Jamie. I hope we can learn from you, and you can learn from us – about coping and finding peace and joy, not in an intellectual sense. Hi, jamie – Hope you enjoy being here. Until there is a more work-a-day, acceptable way to be an “in-betweener,” this place is a life-saver! Hi Jamie, I’m also new to the forum. Your thoughts are a lot like mine. I’ve spent a lot of time reconstructing what a testimony is and what it means to “know”. I now recognize that what I used to think were confirmations from the Holy Ghost are better described as emotional responses to things that resonate with me. That was a difficult thing for me to accept for a long time because of the implications for my life.
jamie988 wrote:I feel like I’ve lost part of my identity.
Very well put. That’s how I felt – like everything I based my actions on for my whole life had been pulled out from under me and I didn’t have anything left to stand on. But with some time, I’ve started to rebuild my foundation.I used to pray to know that the church was true, having total confidence I would eventually receive a grand confirmation, something I could never shrug off as being just another emotion. Only after a lot of years did the thought enter my mind that I might not ever get that.
jamie988 wrote:The church by it’s very design is all or nothing – true or false – and there’s no room for an in-betweener like me.
At first I felt the same way, and honestly I’m not totally sure yet whether I can make it in that in-between land. But, like you, I find so many things about the church that I like, and even want to be true. So I choose to continue practicing and we’ll see where the road takes me.Good luck on your journey.
Quote:The church by it’s very design is all or nothing – true or false – and there’s no room for an in-betweener like me.
Yes, there is – and you can find that room. It might take time, but you can find it.
Welcome to StayLDS Jamie. I believe what you are experiencing is part of the human condition. It’s called tribalism or nationalism and it is developmentally appropriate. Humans are social creatures so we naturally group together for survival and advancement. It is natural (quite possibly hardwired into our evolving brains) to feel comfortable and trusting of our own group while we are suspicious of outsiders. While this forming of groups has been advantageous through much of history, it can hold us back in a globally linked world.
What about the life experience of a person in a very different environment and culture than ours, Is it valid? Blake T. Ostler says:
Quote:I suggest that if we adopt religious “exclusivism” or “pluralism,” then we have a problem. Exclusivism is the view that only we have a direct conduit to God and only we have “the truth.” Pluralism is the view that everybody has as much right to say that they have got the truth as everybody else. But I don’t believe that we adopt either of those views; I believe that LDS adopt what I call “religious inclusivism.” That is, for instance, the experiences of evangelicals that Jesus is Christ don’t call into question the LDS faith at all. Faith is a universally and eternally valid principal for all. Every person will receive that degree of light that they are willing to receive and every degree of light represents salvation. Further,
every person has a purpose in human life to learn from experiences given wherever they are in their progression. It must be a part of our faith that the people who are born in the deepest jungles in Africa, who will never hear the Gospel during this life, have as much purpose in their life to learn from their life experiences as we do; and that they will gain, thereby, an increase in light by so doing.And I tell you that it is simply true that faith in Christ is an eternally and universally valid principle and basis for knowing and experiencing truth and performing miracles. Faith in Christ is as valid a principle for Augustine as for President Hinckley and as operative in the day of Martin Luther as it was in the day of Joseph Smith. That’s our faith. Now we may be called into question if somebody has a vision, for instance, of the Virgin Mary; because I don’t believe that the LDS believe that the Virgin Mary puts in many appearances. However I suggest that we look beyond what divides us and look to “inclusivism,” and that is, “What is it that they learned? What does their religious experience teach them?”
Because God will adapt his message to any culture, and any means that He can, to increase the light of a person(see Alma 29: 
. So I suggest that by adopting “religious inclusivism” we minimize the challenge from “religious pluralism.”I love that my LDS theology has the framework to support inclusivism – that each child matters. They not only matter because of some divine potential that only the Mormons have the secret to unlock – they matter because they are fulfilling the measure of their creation right now, with or without us, with every step taken and every lesson learned.
And so it is with us. Elder Holland says:
Quote:in this world,
everyoneis to walk by faith. So be kind regarding human frailty—your own as well as that of those who serve with you in a Church led by volunteer, mortal men and women. Except in the case of His only perfect Begotten Son, imperfect people are all God has ever had to work with. That must be terribly frustrating to Him, but He deals with it. So should we. And when you see imperfection, remember that the limitation is not in the divinity of the work. As one gifted writer has suggested, when the infinite fulness is poured forth, it is not the oil’s fault if there is some loss because finite vessels can’t quite contain it all. Those finite vessels include you and me, so be patient and kind and forgiving.
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/print/2013/04/lord-i-believe?lang=eng We all see through a glass darkly. It is possible that the LDS church and theology is merely God adapting his message to our particular tribe called Mormonism. It might just be an imperfect and limited reflection or “finite vessel” of His plan and purposes. It doesn’t diminish the value of my tribe to know that were not the only one (“Other sheep have I that are not of this fold”), or even that we might not be the favorites.
Sorry for the lengthy welcome. This is a topic that I have given a lot of thought. I love my fellow man and I am most frustrated when we attempt to use our doctrine and culture to make ourselves feel special at the expense of everybody else – but I suppose it is only human nature… ”We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.” And so it is!
Hi Jamie, welcome! I hope you find your time with us to be beneficial. jamie988 wrote:I’m told that the spirit will confirm truth to me after following a carefully defined prescription or method to receiving results, but that is no different than the method for receiving a witness about anything else or any other religion.
True, but does that really make following your heart less valid?
jamie988 wrote:At any moment in time, no matter what I believe, about half of the planet believes that I’m going to be damned to hell, and no one has any more solid footing than the other to support those claims.
True, but consider this question – what do you believe about God? Do you believe He is petty and exclusionary, or do you believe He is perfectly loving and simply hoping and cheering for our personal growth? (I know faithful members in both camps)
jamie988 wrote:If I choose to believe in this church, then I ascribe to the notion that all other faiths are false and assume the world view associated with it. . . . The church by it’s very design is all or nothing – true or false – and there’s no room for an in-betweener like me.
Why? I invite you to carefully take apart the assumptions that go into that last statement. I know that is the way many members may see things, but in my opinion it is a cultural problem based on false traditions. I don’t think the foundation of Mormonism dictates that concept.Take for example the popular teaching that we are not entitled to personal revelation for others; they are entitled to their own revelation to direct their own lives, (the prophet is entitled to revelation to direct the church) and we are entitled to the revelation that will direct ours. The 11th article of faith says we claim and allow everyone the privilege of worshiping according to their own conscience. Do I really, or do I actually claim the right to receive that revelation for them?
To clarify that thought further before my mission when I was seeking a firm confirmation of the “truthfulness” of the church I had a hard time coming up with a “witness” that satisfied me. Today on reflection my interpretation is that I was asking for the wrong thing. I wasn’t asking in a personal sense: “is this right for ME” …I was asking if it was right for the rest of the world. If we are not entitled to receive revelation for others then obviously I was not entitled to that answer (if there could be ONE universal answer that applied equally to all people). When I realized that mistake and finally asked if the church is the right path for me in my life the answer easily came.
Thanks so much for all of your comments and concerns. It’s such a relief to be able to discuss these sorts of things openly and without fear of belittlement or self-righteousness. This board has been a bulwark for me lately. I have tried to sort through explanations like those put forth by Roy and Orson, that the religions and rites of other cultures are God’s adaptations of his truth to them to suit their culture. That there is room for everyone to worship after the dictates of their own conscience no matter who, where, or what they are. The problem I have is that what one believes matters, according to our faith and according to what Christ taught. It’s not enough to be kind, genuine, thoughtful, patient, moral. We have to believe in Christ or be damned. Now, I understand the provisions within Mormon theology for those who don’t have the opportunity to receive Christ, and for those who have received him but in some different form of his revealed truth. What about people like me, who may according to the dictates of my conscience decide to abandon Christ altogether? I want to be moral and upstanding, but it may not be enough without an associated correct belief. Especially once being exposed to “truth”. By the Lords own statement this is the only true and living church on the face of the whole earth, and if my conscience dictates that I don’t believe that to be so, what is my eternal lot? It’s not out of a desire to sin, it’s not out of laziness, it’s out of a lack of conviction or confidence in any spiritual correspondence I may have or hope to receive. I believe I can follow my heart, and it is leading me in this direction. I don’t want to be told I’m being “deceived”. I may be, I may not, but I’m not sure anyone could without hypocrisy call my decision deception and still have tolerance for anyone else’s chance for exaltation according to their obedience to the portion of light they’ve received – especially in religions that are in opposition to Christian teachings.
At the end of the day, I know that my dilemma is unanswerable. I’ve lost trust in heavenly communication in a plan that requires it. I can’t pray. I don’t know who to pray to, I don’t know how to pray, I don’t know what to ask for, I don’t even know if anything is there. And – sadly – I don’t have any confidence that I
couldknow that anything is there. It’s a complete catch-22. I’m taught to pray to receive knowledge, but I can’t trust anything I would receive anyway. Asking if the church is true – even just true for me – is vacuous in my mind. Blah – This is largely more philosophical than anything.
This isn’t anything helpful really, but it was a fascinating experience: I was in a silly facebook game online about a year ago which had a live chat feature. One guy I was talking to for a while changed the subject and started proselytizing to me about Islam. I just let him talk and go on. He seemed nice enough. What was so very fascinating was HOW MUCH he sounded like us Mormons doing the same thing.
He asked me if I knew about Islam, and if I had ever read the Qur’an. He gave me a list of passages to read in it. He also said the Qur’an contained a promise: that if I read it with a sincere heart, and prayed to Allah to know if it was true, that Allah would reveal the truth of it to me. In that way, I would gain a knowledge of the truth. He had this kind of experience and wanted to share it with people he met. He was a very nice, respectful and reasonable person to talk to.
We discussed it for several minutes. I was just mesmerized hearing our own Mormon missionary style played back but with a different religious context. (btw, he had no idea what Mormons were, or really understood the difference in Christian denominations. I asked him about some of this because I was curious).
jamie988 wrote:At the end of the day, I know that my dilemma is unanswerable. I’ve lost trust in heavenly communication in a plan that requires it. I can’t pray. I don’t know who to pray to, I don’t know how to pray, I don’t know what to ask for, I don’t even know if anything is there. And – sadly – I don’t have any confidence that I could know that anything is there. It’s a complete catch-22.
What you are saying makes sense. In an assumptive world collapse our old assumptions are washed away. We build new assumptions that better fit our life experiences and help to interface between us and the outside world. Is the church “true and living”? How authoritative is every “jot and tiddle” of the scriptures? Is priesthood important in the economy of God? Who was JC and how important is that to salvation? Does God exist and if so what is He/She/It/They like? Sometimes these new assumptions are tenative – I don’t know that God lives but I make an active choice to live according to my 60% belief rather than my 40% doubt.
My point from before is that the LDS church has a theological framework that can give you room to decide for yourself. This isn’t a True or False format. It can be an experience based journey. Even if you decide to build your assumptive world on the premise that God does not exist or that Mormonism is not in your future – your life still has meaning – it hasn’t all just been a waste of potential. My hope is that this allows you to feel things out based on what is truly the best fit for you rather than fear. The God that I choose to believe in is big enough to accept that.
jamie988 wrote:We have to believe in Christ or be damned.
David Hyrum Smith (the youngest son of JS) said:
Quote:“’Except you believe, ye shall be damned’ is the first proposition in the church.’ … In art, in science, in every department of life, intelligence is never required to give credence to or act upon any proposition unless it is capable of demonstration, actual demonstration, or it is based upon apparrent (sic) fact, apparent even though their causes and mode be hidden. But in religion another basis is acted upon and we are expected to believe and stake our salvation upon this belief. … The seeker for salvation must first believe and the vital object, salvation or damnation, hangs thereon. This is absurd.”
I have also read that if we do not declare the Lord’s prophet to be Mohammad then we shall be damned. I’m not too worried about it.Also what is implied in what I’m saying is that I do not believe everything in the church nor do I believe everything in the scriptures – if I where required to accept the whole of it as divine or else a complete fraud I would have had to walk away already. I don’t believe in ultimatums! They make me …
:sick: Jamie, we all know here that we are not an authority for each other – I can’t say that my way is what you need to follow. All we can do is share our experiences and learn from each other, in my view that is the ideal of the church also. I feel like I have been on a path similar to what you are experiencing. What I had to do was let go of all definitions and start from scratch. I could not comprehend a God in the same way that I had in the past, so I started new. I asked myself “do these ideas about God help me move forward?” and if the answer was no I dropped them and held onto the positive. I built from “God is Love”, “All truth is of God” etc. because I had decided that where I’m planted requires me to be able to express myself naturally in terms of God. While there was a time I didn’t feel comfortable praying or putting “trust” in something “out there”, today I am very comfortable with the term “prayer” because I associate it with turning inward and contemplating the greatest ideal of love and truth that I can imagine. If you don’t know what to trust, ask your inner self if there is some core to yourself worth turning to in times of contemplation – trust that.
On the other side of that coin as I would say most revelation can be misinterpreted, be careful how you read the urgent signals of today. They may seem like red lights that are telling you to “run”, when the reality may be signaling a new opportunity that you could miss if you don’t take the time to stop and carefully consider all that is going on at the scene.
Jamie, I could have written your last post if I were as eloquent in writing as you are.
I, too, have been confused about the nature of God, who to pray to, what my prayers should even consist of if and when I do pray. My beliefs seem to be changing so rapidly that it seems hard for me to keep up. The most amazing thing is that I was horrified of this ever happening, and now that it is it isn’t as bad as I once feared. Comfortable, NO! Hard, Yes. Freeing…More than I ever thought possible!
I don’t know if this will help, nor do I think that anyone but you can find out what YOUR personal truth is, who God is to you, if anything or anyone. But I will share what is helping me in the possibility to give you some ideas of what may help you cope with your Faith Transition.
I am reading a book called “Conversations with God”. If I would have read this book even 6 months ago I would have thought it to be a blasphemous book (but then again I was raised to think that most things outside of our religion were). Now that my mind and heart have been open to receive truth from any source I find it amazing. Here is one of the thoughts I read today that I really love from the book:
“Do not dismantle the house, but look at each brick, and replace those which appear to be broken, which no longer support the structure.”
“If your values serve you, hold to them. Argue for them. Fight to defend them. Yet seek to fight in a way which harms no one. Harm is not a necessary ingredient in healing….” Yes, hold to your values—so long as you experience that they serve you. Yet look to see whether the values you serve, with your thoughts, words, and actions, bring to the space of your experience the highest and best idea you ever had about you. “
What this means to me is to evaluate each of my former beliefs. I want a new view about who God is, WHO I am and my purpose. Basically, I all created what I believe so Ihave the power to change these beliefs. As is said so often in this blog, even within the church everyone believes and chooses what and how they live “their religion”. I couldn’t see that before. Now it is clear that I have been doing the same thing as well as everyone else. (I also realize that my beliefs today will more than likely change again, or I may gain deeper meaning and understanding, thus they may seem to change). So, I am starting with the things that have bugged me for years about the church. If they don’t serve me I am trying to let it go. It helps me to write, write and write some more. It is a form of meditation for me. It helps me to see what I do believe. The scary thing that I am realizing that very little of how I act, dress, parent,live,behave, react, fear, love, etc, is my own personal belief system but rather societies, culture and religion influence. It seems like an overwhelming task to find out what I truly believe in my own soul without influence. But I want to find out if it is possible why my Highest part of me, my God self, desires.
I hope you will find what works for you. I am so glad this place exists that we can make sense of what we are going through. I don’t know what I would have done without this forum! Peace be with you!
Welcome to this site Jamie. I am fairly new here and also find it to be so comforting to have a place to turn when it seems everyone around me thinks so literally and absolutely about the truth they have. I simply don’t know that truth anymore. Like you, I hope to discover one day that it is in fact the Savior’s church. After all, it use to hold my heart and soul. I want to love it again, like I once did. You are not alone my friend! I can definitely say that time will heal some of the anxiousness. A faith crisis is a huge loss to experience and with it comes the stages of grief. I have felt anger, sadness, and complete confusion. In such a short period of time I have believed everything from devout mormonism to being athiest, agnostic, and now- it’s the gospel according to myself! Now that doesn’t sound “wayward” does it!!
:think: The world just isn’t the same anymore. I no longer have a picture in my mind of where I came from, why I am here, and where I am going. My mission is not what it was and my safety net is gone.
But…a few things I am coming to accept and find joy in…
1) If God exists, he would not expect me to live in a veiled world and follow a black and white way of thinking. He WOULD NOT place a veil over our eyes and then say- By the way, this life will determine your eternity.
2) If God exists, he knows I am doing my darnedest to find Him. Punishing me with the loss of eternal family and glory because I have discovered something within mormonism that makes believing so very difficult…that just doesn’t make sense. I will not fear the loss of celestial glory because my past beliefs would say it is in jeopardy. The past is the past. God looks on the heart and he knows my heart’s desire remains the same: to serve Him. Something is telling me that what I once believed is not what God wants ME to believe. I can’t ignore that. To ignore it would be to ignore God….seems counter-productive to my heart’s desire!
3) Until the veil is removed, belief in anything spiritual and eternal will always be an act of faith. To remove myself partially, or wholly from mormonism is an act of faith for me. I am not rebelling against something that I know to be true because I no longer know it to be true! I am following where I feel God is guiding me. In the end- I may be going down a wrong path. In the end, I may need to backtrack a whole lot to regain a celestial understanding. And if that’s the case, I most certainly will do that. But for now, I find peace in knowing that I am being true to what I think God wants me to do.
4) Maybe God doesn’t exist. That is certainly a possibility as well. I allowed myself to embrace this as a reality for about a month or so. But I just wasn’t happy. Suddenly there was no reason for anything and no purpose to being here. There was no music and soul to living.
I want to believe in God, and while a small part of me fears He may not exist…a much bigger part of me can feel his presence in everything around me. So, as I continue on this journey, I choose to believe in a God that is directing me to where I need to be. My connection to God feels stronger every day and while this connection does not feel the same as it did within Mormonism, the bond is incredibly empowering and so filled with trust and respect. I truly walk with a greater amount of clarity, love and faith than I ever did with my prior knowledge of the plan of salvation.
I continue to go to the mormon church with my husband and I am trying so hard to find God’s messages for me within those walls. Even with my new found testimony…and lack thereof, I don’t see the point of going to a different church. My new testimony is leading me to a new definition of truth. I don’t think truth is to be found in ONE religion, ONE organization, or ONE theology. But Mormonism is what I know. It is my family. I am trying to make it feel like home again, with my new and improved belief system.
The biggest struggle is the “either you are with us or you are against us” member mentality. Hopefully in time, there will be a greater acceptance of personal struggle/interpretation within the walls of the church and we won’t need to find solace from staylds alone. But for the time being, this website is here.
:clap: Is it silly that I actually fill up with tears when I think about this website?Sorry I have rambled on for so long. One final thought: Your journey is yours. Be honest and true to what YOU feel you need to do… because it will lead you to amazing places.
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