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Figuringitout… AMEN!!!! Loved what you wrote! I am amazed at the openness, acceptance, and usefulness of all of the reactions to my post so far. As I re-read my posts I freeze when I realize that I actually wrote “choose to abandon Christ altogether”. The me of a year ago would have been far less kind than any of you have been, and I thank you for it. First – Roy – your most recent input on what it means to have faith and belief are extremely helpful. I don’t necessarily have to accept belief in the traditional sense as the ultimate determiner of my eternal destiny. I don’t have to go all in on that one wager for all eternity if I don’t want to.
Orson and Opentofreedom- The idea of re-building my house of belief brick by brick is extremely useful and insightful. What do I imagine God to be? What are his attributes that I feel like I’ve been able to identify most in my experience? What is the truest of the true to me? That’s going to be the method for forming that image and then building upon it. For me, this exercise is going to be independent of any external structure, and then I’ll have plenty of room for it to settle nicely within the four walls of the Church – if that’s where I land.
and last – FiguringItOut – Your post was incredible and I appreciate your openness and suggestions. The hardest thing for me, like you, is realizing that the safety net is gone. The plan of salvation isn’t necessarily my view of things anymore, and in that sense I’m a little lost.I have a wife and child and I don’t know what that means in the long term anymore. It freaks me out! Your post, however, provides some great hope that I can become comfortable with my own conception of God, religion, whatever, and find happiness and peace regardless of what is going on around me. I can wander and sort this thing out over time and backtrack as needed and not fear. Most of all I appreciate your comments on not seeing a point to go to a different church. It’s strange, even though my faith has all but collapsed, I’ve never felt the need to go anywhere else, just to find my place within. I don’t think I’d be any happier anywhere else, I just want to feel comfortable and accepted as a non-traditional Mormon Thinker.
Everyone – I don’t really know any of you, but you have all been such a great help recently. I’ve been on this board for two days and I feel like I’ve come to better understand my own thoughts and feelings in such deeper and meaningful ways because of your careful prodding into my assumptions and gentle nudges into new ways of thinking. Each of you are excellent people and I admire your ability to be kind and compassionate to people who are feeling more discouraged or lost than ever before. I imagine trying to have this conversation with anyone I know outside of my wife and it would be an absolute disaster.
Thank you all so, so much.
This sounds trite, but we are meant to learn to be agents unto ourselves – adults of God – developing gods – etc. To do that – to fulfill the vision of Mormon theology – we simply MUST take ownership of our own faith. I can’t reject the frame in which I was taught that glorious concept (Mormon theology), just because doing it isn’t easy and is, in many cases, painful. Wow. There are some really good posts in this thread from new posters. Much more uplifting than my church experience last Sunday. Welcome you new people.
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Welcome, Jamie There have been quite a number of excellent posts on this thread – I second what long-timer cwald said. There are about a dozen different issues and angles that one could take with your OP, but I’ll just add my two cents on one or two lines you wrote:
jamie988 wrote:I could believe, but belief is not a costless choice either. If I choose to believe in this church, then I ascribe to the notion that all other faiths are false and assume the world view associated with it. I ascribe to all of the procedural and political aspects of the church that I disagree with. The church by it’s very design is all or nothing – true or false – and there’s no room for an in-betweener like me.
Mate, you’re absolutely right in that believing is a choice. I respectfully disagree with you though, that if you choose to beleive, that you have to take all of the doctrines,policies and practices of the Church in whole cloth. I just don’t think that you do. While the leadership of the Church may teach exclusivity, and TBMs may teach it during Sunday meetings, my heart and mind tell me that “exclusivity,” as a doctrine, is not true. So I don’t buy it. That doesn’t make my worship, my experience in the Mormon Church, and my membership any less important or fulfilling to me. It just means that I disagree with a policy or doctrine of the Church. Now of course I don’t publicly pronounce this at Fast and Testimony meeting. In fact, when I choose to bear a testimony, they’re usually pretty simple. Lot’s of “I believe” rather than “I know.” I no longer say “I know the Church is true.” In fact, I don’t even think I know what that sentence even means. Despite that, I still find lots of value in my membership, in my weekly attendance, and in my association with the Church. The list of things I don’t exactly toe the TBM line on is not long, but there are quite a few substantial things on there. Again, I don’t run around the chapel and trumpet my non-traditional beliefs. But it’s surprising – once you kind of know the code words and know what you’re looking for, it’s surprising how many kindred spirits you’ll find in your ward.
Best of luck to you, Jamie. My advice is very simple: don’t let anyone else define for you whether or not you can stay Mormon. You define it for yourself, and you’ll be okay whether you choose to believe or not.
Whoa, did I miss something … Brian Johnston is back! :clap: :wave: 
Quote:The church by it’s very design is all or nothing – true or false – and there’s no room for an in-betweener like me.
One of my favorite statements is:
Quote:The beauty of Mormonism is that you can believe just about anything you want and find some apostle who has taught it.
Every single member of the Church is an “in-betweener” in some way – a “cafeteria Mormon” who picks and chooses which statements / teachings/ opinions to believe and which ones to ignore. I can find a statement from some apostle and Prophet that any individual member doesn’t accept or believe. I mean that completely.
Every. Single. Member. of. the. LDS Church. is. an. in-betweener. in. some. way.I absolutely LOVE that about our history, even though it drives black-and-white thinkers nuts.
Hi Jamie, You’ve come to a great place—the best ward in the Church! You can be completely honest here, and nobody is going to run you out or judge you harshly.
I work with college freshmen and sophomores for a living. They all struggle through an interesting transition—from the certainty of knowing the world is cut and dried, black and white, to the uncomfortable unknowing that reality isn’t really like that—truth has multiple facets and can be viewed from different angles and dimensions. It’s a tough transition, and it really feels like the rug has been pulled out from under you. This is especially true when we encounter this transition in relation to our most cherished beliefs. This transition into a new way of viewing the world is
nota defect in character—it is a natural part of our growth into enlightenment. The next stage is to realize there are many ways to look at Truth, and to commit to living one of those ways. Quote:I hope it’s true, I really do. But I don’t know, and I’ll likely never know again. I could believe, but belief is not a costless choice either.
I’ve been thinking about Pascal’s Wager lately. Wikipedia has a good summary of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager Pascal argues that commitment to belief does incur a cost, but that betting on God is a good wager. When it comes to the fear of losing salvation because I didn’t cross all my t’s and dot my I’s that the traditional Mormon checklist requires, I prefer to believe in the vision of a God of Love revealed in the Gospel of John. I just can’t imagine that God would consign me to destruction or separate me from my loved ones if I sincerely did my best, but maybe didn’t do things exactly the traditional Mormon way. This isnota view that traditional Mormons are comfortable supporting—and we a trained from a young age to fear this point of view, because we might use it as a justification for stagnating and wallowing in carnality and pettiness, instead of casting out our fear of hell and doing good because we have charity. This non black-and-white way has its dangers, and isn’t very amenable to the micro-management of behavior and belief that TBMs find comfort in. I have also come to reject the fear of a merciless God who, at the judgment bar, counts the beans and cuts us off if we are missing one or two. If we live a good life, He will embrace us and accept us into the mansions He has prepared for us individually—whatever that result looks like in the end (we really know so very little about the afterlife…). I believe this is a universal salvation available to allgood people of the world. (Note the subtle difference between this philosophy and “Eat, drink, and be merry, nevertheless fear God, etc.) Mormonism offers a pretty good way of looking at life in general, and produces good people. I think I can commit to that, even though like you I don’t “know” and likely never will again…I’m going to take that wager. I hope you’ll come along and be patient with your own journey into not “knowing” in a black-and-white way anymore, and being patient with those around you who are still there and might fear for your soul.
Welcome, Jamie!
-Turin Turambar, Dagnir Glaurunga
Welcome, I would like to share a different paradigm. This is my own …but I share it in case there is a gold nugget in it somewhere that might resonate with you as you form your own path in Mormonism. I’ve grown comfortable with a somewhat neutral approach to the LDS Church. Its kind of an agnostic approach to the religion where I neither “confirm nor deny” the truthfulness of basic beliefs. Contribute in the church as your talents direct, and look forward to the day when you move on from this earth, and gain new knowledge at that time. At that time you will know if your spirit is eternal, whether the church exists in some form in the next life, and will have further information about what is true. Take a long-term view of your understanding of the truth as you experience the eternal existence. In the meantime, don’t get bogged down in theological questions that can’t be resolved — live your life in service that you won’t regret, and start now.
One way to get around the faith conflicts you run into as you work to serve others (like being asked to teach a lesson on something you’re not sure you believe) is to serve in more operational church areas and simply avoid the theological kind of service we do. Contribute as your talents direct, and look forward to the day when you move on from this earth, and gain new knowledge at that time. At that time you will know if your spirit is eternal, whether the church exists in some form in the next life, and will have further information about what is true. In the meantime, don’t get bogged down in theological questions that can’t be resolved — live your life in service that you won’t regret.
For example, operational activities are like these — put on activities for the youth, social events for adults, have people into your home for fun/social experiences, do and initiate community service projects, help with stake and ward events, but avoid the administrative and teaching aspects of church service as much as possible. Contribute as your personal strengths allow as this is where you can make your greatest contribution.
That way you can take part in “becoming” a Christ Like person without having to constantly confront the hard to swallow faith issues. Drop any silent ambitions or desires for leadership in the church where you have to confront these issues more frequently as an “example” to the Ward.
If this is not satisfying, then direct your efforts to a cause outside the church you feel passionate about and get a whole new circle of friends, and a new primary or supplementary tribe. This is where you serve mankind without getting mired in theology and the organizational ego-centrism you see in the LDS religion. Right now, my closest circle of friends are non-members — most of whom have outstanding character themselves.
But maintain the level of church activity your want to keep the family progressing (attend church, get a TR if you want it, do a bit of HT). I keep saying this latter statement a lot lately at this site (sorry) but after 30 years of serving in the LDS church, community-focused frontiers are incredibly exciting and a new experience. My involvement over the last year in community-based non-profits has alerted me to the fact that you can grow in Christlike attributes and serve mankind in significant ways outside the LDS Church — and in many cases, you can “bring to pass much righteousness” that you could not accomplish in the church. And it reduces the faith crisis to midget status in your life. This is because you now have bigger fish to fry — and the church is just another organization furthering its own mission — it is not the center of your life. Christ is still the center (if you believe in Christ), but the church isn’t.
It’s not only about the church. It’s about mankind, and other organizations are able to meet these people needs much better than the LDS church in many cases. Find your passion, join a group that harnesses that passion, make that your priesthood service to personkind, and avoid theological issues altogether as you serve.
A js said:
“Men should be anxiously engaged IN A GOOD CAUSE, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness. For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good, they shall in no wise lose their reward” (D&C).
Notice how ambiguous A GOOD CAUSE is — it can be church service, community service, or service of any kind. And its quoteable when the ward or stake extends callings you don’t want — refer to the time you are putting into other good causes.
That is my paradigm…it’s not for everyone. But I share it as after several years of posting here, it’s where I’ve landed, and it has brought me high levels of engagement — and will do so until my personal philosophy evolves into another form.
I am even considering giving the equivalent of tithing to this organization, with no strings attached….Did I say that out loud?
I like to remember the 8th article of faith, but I believe it applies to every religion’s grasp of the truth. “We believe the church to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.” Every church or religion is translating or interpreting the gospel, the way of life, the spiritual path. There isn’t one, including Mormonism, that gets it right all the time. Mormonism doesn’t even claim that; it just claims Jesus is at the head of the church. I used to work for American Express. Ken Chenault was at the head. Not everything the company said or did was aligned properly to his vision for it. Some people go rogue because they think they are right about an idea or concept or their own vision, and they feel strongly they know. That’s part and parcel of all human organizations. Another interesting thing is that we don’t know what it means to feel like we are wrong. We only know what it feels like to realize we WERE wrong and in doing so, we become right again. So everyone who is doing something at any given time is convinced they are right (or they could not take action).
Wow, Jamie, I could have written thismyself – it just took me longer to get where you’re at. Thank you all who have contributed, I look forward to more insight. It’s okay to believe. Even Elder Holland talked about it being okay to just believe. http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/04/lord-i-believe?lang=eng His talk helped me to figure out what I know and what I believe and what I hope for.
hawkgrrrl wrote:
Another interesting thing is that we don’t know what it means to feel like we are wrong. We only know what it feels like to realize we WERE wrong and in doing so, we become right again. So everyone who is doing something at any given time is convinced they are right (or they could not take action).That is a very poignant point.
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