How did you find out about JS’ polygamy?

[Anonymous]

Just wondering, how and when did you find out about JS’ polygamy?

I grew up in the church, and did not know for sure that Joseph Smith had been married to multiple women until the Gospel Topics essay came out. I didn’t learn about it in seminary or Gospel Doctrine. It’s not mentioned in the ‘Our Heritage’ manual or the ‘Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith’ manual (the latter includes a disclaimer that it is NOT going to talk about plural marriage). Joseph Smith’s polygamy was never mentioned at any of the Church history sites I’ve visited including Palmyra, Kirtland, Carthage and Nauvoo. The movie ‘Legacy’ which was popular a few years back depicts Joseph as the loving husband of only one wife. As a good Mormon girl, I did not seek information about church history outside of officially published and correlated materials.

So that’s problem #1 with the Church’s handling of JS polygamy. Okay, yes, they didn’t come right out and SAY “Joseph Smith was only married to one woman.” But they knowingly and willfully depicted him as a monogamist. Aren’t we always being told that lying by omission still counts as a lie?

My husband insists that I am wrong, that ‘everyone knows’ that JS was married to many women, that I am ‘bitter’ and ‘childish’ for ever having believed otherwise. When pressed, my husband says that he was first introduced to the idea of JS polygamy by a Sunday School teacher in his ward nicknamed ‘False Doctrine Taylor’ for his propensity to stray from correlated manuals. My husband also learned about JS polygamy from BYU Education Week (which most members don’t have access to) and from his Institute classes (which until the manual was put online, again, most members don’t have access to. I attended a small Midwestern college in the late 90s/early 00s – no Institute there.) He also says that polygamy in general was openly discussed in his family, due to having it in their family history. (I don’t. The first person in my family to join the Church was baptized in 1981.) When my husband was serving a mission – and he LITERALLY served in Palmyra, New York – he didn’t mention to investigators that Joseph Smith was married to more than one woman.

So that’s problem #2 I have with it: that the knowledge seems to be a privilege reserved only for certain members. If you have polygamy in your family background, or if you are one of the people lucky enough to attend BYU or a college with an Institute program, you get to know. If you join the Church as a post-college adult, or you can’t afford college or Education Week, or if you don’t have a ‘False Doctrine Taylor’ in your ward, you don’t get to know.

I’ve been listening to the FMH ‘Year of Polygamy,’ which led me to ask my husband a question: how many of the wives of Joseph Smith can you name? Not surprisingly, he could only name the two best-known: Emma and Eliza R. And that leads to the third, and possibly biggest, issue I have with the Church’s handling of JS’ polygamy: Look at how easy these women were to erase. Joseph Smith is written in ink – his wives are written in pencil, or not at all. (And not to derail my own argument, but the exact same thing happens with Heavenly Mother.) The wives of Joseph Smith are not worthy of being mentioned by name, even though every single one of them had to struggle with the decision to marry him or not. The considerable pain and anguish that polygamy caused Emma must not be mentioned, because it’s inconvenient to our narrative. Even the prophets who were openly polygamist don’t get their wives’ names listed in their ‘Teachings of the Presidents of the Church’ manuals. It seems like polygamy is all about the men, even though it affected women in much greater numbers.

What do you think? Am I bitter and childish? How did you first find out about JS polygamy – from a correlated source or not? What did you think when you first heard about it?

[Anonymous]

Well, first I would say is how you feel is how YOU FEEL. Own it even if others are scorning others.

I am in my mid 50’s and grew up in the church way outside of the Mormon Corridor and did all the normal things seminary 4 years (perfect attendance for 3.5 years – Yes I am bragging!), mission, but I couldn’t afford to go to BYU since I had to pay my own way and had a really good job near home. I did attend institute a bit, but quickly decided it wasn’t worth my time since there was only one other guy that attended and the institute teacher was a wacko and the only thing I remember him teaching us was about some Egyptian group that worshiped a 10 foot phallic. After that I married in the temple and have been active ever since and served as EQ pres, many many YM presidencies, several bishoprics, SS pres, HPGL, … and never once has this come up in church until about 3 years ago when someone left with a lot of noise and one of their points was JS polygamy. (I have a 70 on Bobs Mormon Cred scale)

I didn’t know about JS polygamy until probably 5 years ago and didn’t know about the polyandry until about 4 years ago and I didn’t know about him being sealed to other men until about 3 years ago and didn’t know that last item was called “the law of adoption” until about a year ago.

So basically I would call BS on the assertion that “everyone knew”. Why are so many people upset about it now if “everyone knew”? Show me what church publication (remember the ones we are supposed to stick with) that ever discloses that.

I feel it is the same with the essays now. I feel they are for plausible deniability in the years to come where they can be pointed to and said, “You didn’t read everything that was on LDS.ORG?”

[Anonymous]

I’m a convert at age 21 (longer ago than I want to think about now). I was actually told by a member I considered a friend at the time. In retrospect, he was far more well versed in history and doctrine than most I knew at the time and I never suspected such was the case. Honestly he didn’t seem to be much of an intellectual. So I knew fairly early in my church life, even though it wasn’t talked about openly in classes and such (I didn’t notice because my early years were spent in YM and Primary). I really just assumed most people knew but it was no big deal. I didn’t figure out that most people didn’t know until the essays.

[Anonymous]

I would probably think that a majority of members heard about it, but like me…I never got into it or read or studied about it…and the correlated lesson materials don’t raise the subject. It was more a back room topic for those who like to delve into things, and actually that was discouraged a lot so it just wasn’t talked about. Information has been out there, it wasn’t hidden, but it was not emphasized and growing up in the church I think it was borderline teachings that were not important to Christ’s mission. I never really knew how much of it was really true and how much was slanted and exaggerated by anti-mormons, and I wasn’t really interested in the topic.

Memories are also not perfect. I seemed to try to talk to my grandparents about it and they denied knowing anything about it and dismissed it as lies. I think it may have been something that over time people forget when they want to forget. Or they just don’t remember it correctly when it is not talked about openly at church to reinforce facts.

So…I do think the info was out there and many members knew some things about it…I am not surprised many members are caught by surprise and never taught it. It was probably 2010 when I really looked at it and realized how little I knew about the facts and I never knew details like 33 wives and polyandry and the Laws and ages of some of the women and the secrecy and covering up involved. When I did read about that…it is a really bad thing in our past, I think. It bothers me a lot. But it has also taught me a lot about prophets and church leaders and revelations and many things that help shape my experience at church today. As I realized life is messy in this world (my life is), this confirmed that the church is in the world and is messy too.

I have talked to some people and find some people know some about it but don’t want to discuss it and don’t think it is important. Others avoid it. I did have a mormon therapist during the years we went to marriage therapy in my first marriage and that therapist had not heard Joseph Smith had multiple wives when I brought it up once. It confirmed to me that not everyone knew.

But I think with the Internet…it just is brought to light and can’t be entirely avoided…hence the essay. It is now how you deal with the info, not if the info is fact or not. It can’t be dismissed as the work of the devil. But…how many websites talk about JS being a pedophile and slander him…well…those angles are reflections of the authors, and I can understand some people coming to a different conclusion than Bushman and others come to.

But I don’t think “everyone” knew, and I don’t think that “no one” knew. It was a scattered mix depending on lots of things.

I think it is safe to assume that if your experience was shock…there are many people like you out there…you aren’t the only one.

And likewise…if your husband’s experience is not shock because it has been out there for years and all these resources at church and church schools quote it…then it is likely he is not the only one either…there are many church members like him that process it like he does.

The trick is that despite different experiences, you find ways to have discussions about it in the home.

[Anonymous]

Joni, I haven’t read this whole thread closely, but I’ll just answer the basic question. As a young kid I had (I’ll call it) an awareness that Utah Mormons were polygamists. My first inkling that Joseph Smith was one, too, came when I was eavesdropping as kids do on a conversation – it was an argument loud enough to catch my ear – between my still-Lutheran uncles and my convert mother. They were telling her about (what I assume now is) Fanny Alger and the lot. I remember a sinking feeling and, If this is true I want nothing to do with it.

Of course some people knew more, but since the Nauvoo polygamy essay was an absolute bombshell in and out of the church, I assume most people didn’t.

I don’t think talking with your husband about it is going to do much good. As long as the church is defending polygamy, my husband will defend it. (Our past practice of it, I mean.) And he sees people like me as attackers. And that’s one of the saddest things about this to my mind. They don’t make much better men than my husband. And to see him defending this out of loyalty and devotion to the church he loves….

[Anonymous]

I get the impression that I knew about JS polygamy fairly early on. From my mission if not earlier.

What startled me was when I read RSR and met a narrative of JS who was not always confident and sure. It painted a picture of a JS that was feeling his way through things much more than I had previously imagined.

[Anonymous]

LookingHard wrote:

(I have a 70 on Bobs Mormon Cred scale)

Never heard of Bob’s Mormon Cred Scale before, but it’s hilarious. 😆 I took the quiz and scored a 45. Then I took it again pretending to be my husband, and scored a 95 (I’m assuming the highest you can go is 100). He’s celestial, I’m telestial. And I know it’s tongue in cheek and not legally binding and all that, but I think those numbers tell you a LOT about why my husband is so frustrated with me. He served a mission and didn’t look at porn and didn’t drink coffee and graduated from BYU – he earned a 95. He deserves to be married to a 95, or at least an 80 or higher. And yet here he is married to a 45! That’s not at all what his Young Men leaders and his mission president and his patriarchal blessing told him would happen. So I think when I say things like “Joseph Smith was wrong to marry 14-year-old girls and lie about it to his wife,” my husband can’t even respond to the content of my statement, because all he can think about is how cheated he feels.

I’m teaching Primary now, and when Joseph Smith comes up (I think we start in on church history in January), I plan on mentioning that JS was a polygamist. Not even in a controversial way. I’ll probably say something like “Joseph Smith was commanded by God to take more wives, so he did. It was difficult for Joseph and it was very, very difficult for Emma.” That’s absolutely in line with the tone of the polygamy essay. Whether it gets me in trouble remains to be seen. But I don’t want the girls in my Primary class to grow up and someday be ridiculed by their husbands for not knowing about it.

[Anonymous]

I believe I first found out about Joseph Smith’s polygamy when listening to the Living Scriptures dramatized Church History cassette tapes (probably in the late 70s/early 80s). As I remember it, Joseph was portrayed as very reluctant to practice polygamy, but did it to be obedient. I thought he may have had a few plural wives, but not 30+. I also have several ancestors from both sides of my pedigree that were in polygamous marriages. (I didn’t know about Bob’s Mormon Cred scale, but scored a 95)

So although I knew about Joseph Smith’s polygamy early on, I never understood it, and I didn’t know the extent of it. I didn’t know about polyandry until about 3 years ago.

The narrative has to change!

[Anonymous]

Ann wrote:

Joni, I haven’t read this whole thread closely, but I’ll just answer the basic question. As a young kid I had (I’ll call it) an awareness that Utah Mormons were polygamists. My first inkling that Joseph Smith was one, too, came when I was eavesdropping as kids do on a conversation – it was an argument loud enough to catch my ear – between my still-Lutheran uncles and my convert mother. They were telling her about (what I assume now is) Fanny Alger and the lot. I remember a sinking feeling and, If this is true I want nothing to do with it.

So you knew about it not because of any members, but because non-members brought it up in your family. If you “count” that as “yep she heard about it” then you would assume most people in Utah (with nothing but LDS relatives) wouldn’t have heard about it – at least not this way.

Of course some people knew more, but since the Nauvoo polygamy essay was an absolute bombshell in and out of the church, I assume most people didn’t.

Ann wrote:

I don’t think talking with your husband about it is going to do much good. As long as the church is defending polygamy, my husband will defend it. (Our past practice of it, I mean.) And he sees people like me as attackers. And that’s one of the saddest things about this to my mind. They don’t make much better men than my husband. And to see him defending this out of loyalty and devotion to the church he loves….

I have not had a discussion about it with my wife, but I suspect it might come up in the next few weeks as I level with her on my level of (dis)belief. If I were to bet, she will defend it. I will have to tell her that it boggles my mind that a woman in the church would do so. I can see putting it on the shelf, but defending it as a woman is just hard to understand how someone can do that – especially in that she really was upset that I admitted to looking at a few nude pictures a few years past. I don’t think I will be able to keep from saying, “So if TSM calls today and says that I need to take another wife that is maybe 20 years younger, you would agree to that?” I mean really!! If you believe it was of God then, then logically it seems to me (there goes the Spock in me) that you would have to answer, “Yes, but it would be hard”. But like you say – I don’t think it will change her mind.

[Anonymous]

Before Seminary; don’t know exactly when.

We also talked about it in Seminary – and also in Institute.

[Anonymous]

I lumped it in with the early plural marriage under Brigham Young.

What really got me was when I learned about Fanny Alger. I learned that from a Bloggernacle post. It was just a passing mention, so I researched it, and to this day believe JS had an indiscretion and the blight of plural marriage is with us today as a result…

[Anonymous]

I wonder about the typical experience in the church today. At a young age I was told that we no longer practice polygamy on the earth, but in the celestial kingdom all men would have more than one wife (an idea obviously passed down from great grandparents). I remember an awareness of Brigham Young’s many wives, and being told “we don’t know much about Joseph Smith’s wives, but we do know he taught and practiced plural marriage.”

That was all I knew about Joseph’s polygamy until I started reading RSR, Mormon Enigma, and other sources. The messy details are what really disturbed me. I still wonder how we can address the topic and details (more than in the LDS.org essays) in faithful settings, but it needs to be addressed.

[Anonymous]

The only inkling I heard about JS polygamy, during my time growing up in the church, was the statement “Joseph Smith was not a polygamist. That is an anti-Mormon lie.” My husband asserts that this statement (I don’t remember who said it, likely a seminary teacher) is itself an anti-Mormon lie. (How dare he point fingers at good faithful people, but I digress.) What my husband fails to consider is that where I grew up, almost everyone in my ward was an adult convert (including my parents). Fifth generation Mormons with polygamist ancestry were rare. BYU graduates who had extensively studied church history were rare. (I didn’t have my first taste of funeral potatoes until I was fifteen, is what I am saying.) And at this time, the Church was not openly discussing JS’ polygamy – the seminary manual I used in 1994 is not online, but the ‘Our Heritage’ manual (which was also used in my seminary class is. That manual mentions plural marriage only once, in passing, and does not specify that JS himself practiced it:

Quote:

The Prophet prayed for understanding and learned that at certain times, for specific purposes, following divinely given laws, plural marriage was approved and directed by God. Joseph Smith also learned that with divine approval, some Latter-Day Saints would be chosen by priesthood authority to marry more than one wife. A number of Latter-day Saints practiced plural marriage in Nauvoo.

So you could absolutely read that as a faithful Latter-day Saint and believe that Joseph Smith had only one wife. At the same time, do you know who was openly discussing (and criticizing) Joseph Smith’s polygamy? The anti-Mormons. It just so happened that in this case, they weren’t making it up (a stopped clock is right twice a day). Now imagine you are an adult convert, and you are trying to be good and learn about Church history from only correlated sources – and then your non-member coworker or family member says “Hey, I read in this book by [insert your favorite anti-Mormon author here] that Joseph Smith was married to over thirty women,” OF COURSE you’re going to think that was a lie. And if you are teaching seminary, that’s what you’re going to tell your students – coming from a place of absolute faithfulness. And so, again, it becomes this ugly divide between the ‘good Mormons’ who knew and the ‘bad Mormons’ who didn’t. Witness all the smugness that went around when the essay came out. None of it was terribly charitable.

tl;dr. If everyone already knew because it was openly discussed, then the Church wouldn’t have needed to release essays about it, and my husband should stop acting so darn self-righteous.

[Anonymous]

I agree, Joni. It is a shocker for many, and there are some assumptions people have their whole life that become surprises and those are not fun. I think there are many like you that were never taught it or never stumbled across obscure teachings about it.

I was surprised a couple weeks ago when we went through the church history museum across the street from temple square that up on the wall in one section was a large portion devoted to Emma and the difficulties of polygamy and that she chose not to go west with the saints…polygamy was not glossed over…it seemed to be up in print, almost a headline to the story and that section of the museum. I don’t think that would have been up there 10-15 years ago..but it almost felt like today they want to correct the sins of the past, and make sure that if people are coming to learn the history…they get the history from their source and their faithful approach to it.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

I was surprised a couple weeks ago when we went through the church history museum across the street from temple square that up on the wall in one section was a large portion devoted to Emma and the difficulties of polygamy and that she chose not to go west with the saints…polygamy was not glossed over…it seemed to be up in print, almost a headline to the story and that section of the museum. I don’t think that would have been up there 10-15 years ago..but it almost felt like today they want to correct the sins of the past, and make sure that if people are coming to learn the history…they get the history from their source and their faithful approach to it.

I do think this is a step in the right direction, but it’s disingenuous it its way. To present the true history, it has to include this year! There would need to be pictures of our kids sitting in seminary and institute classes with hands raised or a bishop across the desk from a girl with a question. And an acknowledgement that these kids are taught that mortal polygamy is a true and current doctrine, although we are currently not practicing it.

I was less than ten years old when I overheard the adults talking downstairs and rashly decided I couldn’t be involved with a church whose founder did this. But I can recover from the shock of it. And I imagine many others could, too. I think the church fails to understand that it’s really the present doing the damage.

[Author]

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