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I found the essay on this website and it fit my situation so exactly, it seemed like an answer to a prayer. Maybe it was. I think the tips for “staying LDS” in the essay are terrific. I’ve been trying to do that, but …I feel like I’m living a lie. I sit in Sunday School each week and I can’t help but mentally pick apart the lesson, based on the things that I now know happened or happened very much differently that aren’t being talked about on Sunday. I am constantly biting my tongue to keep quiet in class. I have no faith in the Book of Mormon or the other “revelations” given by Joseph Smith. It’s not that I think his revelations/scriptures are “bad”, I just don’t think they’re what Joseph claimed them to be. So many inconsistencies, implausibilities, and misinformation that I’ve just unquestioningly swallowed my whole life without ever really researching or even thinking about them!
I have expressed my loss of faith to my wife. I’ve even put together a list of “questions that need answers” and asked my wife to read it. She didn’t have much to say about it, except to basically tell me that if I stop going to church or say or do anything that will disrupt her “perfect mormon life” that our family as I know it will fall apart. Perhaps if that’s all that’s holding the marriage together, it deserves to fall apart.
This sucks. The only solution I can see to keep my family together and my marriage intact is to bite my tongue and just keep whistling into the wind. Many people have done much worse than that in their lives, so I guess I can to.
If, as the essay posits, there is really no “true church” and mormonism is as good as any other, then I guess this is ok and I’ll just have to learn to cope. But what I’m concerned about is that there IS some true church, maybe it’s “christianity”, I don’t know. But it’s definitely something that I’m digging into pretty hard. All my life I’ve “known” that I had all the answers, and here it turns out that I’m just as clueless as everybody else.
Wow, lots of great things to talk about here. First, I would suggest a few principles for you (and your wife): 1 – put your marriage first now. Both of you have to make it clear to yourselves that your marriage is something real and supportive in your lives. It takes work, but it’s more important than your own individual religious perspectives. Make it clear that you love your wife & family, and that they come first to you.
2 – religious perspectives shift over time. You see things differently at different stages of life. Don’t fall into the black & white trap of thinking everything is either true or false or that you are in or your out. It’s easy for the pendulum to swing quickly from one end to the other. Slow things down.
3 – try not to drop your spirituality or your desire to know God just because you have questions about the church. The church should not really exist ideally, right? It’s an inspired human organization to help bring people closer to God. So, keep your desire for spirituality and God there, and in some ways the church will bring you closer to that, in other ways maybe not. It’s personal and subjective. It’s your own journey. It’s not “one size fits all.” Your wife will respect that, especially if you can manage to steer clear of black & white perspectives and respect her views and journey as her own. The one marriage killer is trying to control your spouse.
There are a few good resources/discussions to consider:
– James Fowler’s Stages of Faith
– Meyers-Briggs Type Indicator discussions were enlightening to many. There is a strong correlation between some types (NF, NT) and specific kinds of disaffection. Not sure if that will hold true for you, but perhaps.
– Mormon Therapist, a faithful blogger, has done a lot of great work, especially helping faithful spouses remember that marriage is work:
http://mormontherapist.blogspot.com/search/label/struggling%20testimony ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://mormontherapist.blogspot.com/search/label/struggling%20testimony – Faces East may be another good site for your wife to explore, depending on where you are in the whole thing. Pink Patent, one of our regulars, is also someone who might be good for your wife to PM with, as she had a similar situation.
Good luck to you, and welcome to the site!
Welcome Shattered! Funny, I read your post and it literally could have been me writing it 15 years ago…right down to the frustrations of hearing things at church you know aren’t true. The first thing I’ll say is hang in there! This is the dark time of your journey…and when you come out of the other end, life WILL be much better…probably the best it’s ever been! I think most LDSs were raised like you…believing the stories are literal, historical, and true. Certain personality types cling to this, and go through all sorts of mental gymnastics to leave the door cracked to the possibility that it’s all true. The historical contradictions and challenges are just anti-mormon lies and propaganda. That works for them. Maybe your wife is like mine was…and that is a challenge, because since you ARE the one changing your beliefs, she will have all sorts of ammo that you are “the problem.” She is the consistent, committed one.
For me, the most difficult thing was that I wanted to break out! I’m a very passionate and emotional person, and I craved reading new books, going to plays and movies that made me think and feel. I wanted the freedom to explore; to fly. And I felt trapped. I felt guilty to even want those things. It ate my soul. I ended up addicted to pain meds — they gave relief from my emotional pain…mostly by numbing my desires. But it was a bandage only. I would eventually need to face my “demons” and come clean. To everybody.
For me, it ended in divorce. It was what it was…and unfortunately, some of us had to suffer. Fast forward, today both of us are indescribably happy. We are both married to wonderful spouses that have much more in common. We live our truths. Neither is right, neither is wrong…it is our journey. But the important point is that for me at least, it was what I needed to do. My soul needed to soar.
Today I have a very different belief about religion, God, and what I “should” do. I DO believe there are many paths to heaven (and I personally believe that “heaven” is here and now)…Mormonism is but one. It works for many — in different ways. Most on this site have learned to adjust their own attitudes to live within the church, taking what works, and leaving the rest. I say it often here, but I view everybody as doing the best they can with what they’ve been given. When you look at each person that way, without attaching your expectations on them, life is much more peaceful.
Good luck finding your path!
Hawk is so wise. I don’t like it that you feel like you have to live a lie. It seems to me that there are ways to manage the “Stay LDS” process AND keep your marriage moving in the right direction and stay true to yourself at the same time. And I hope you can find a way to live authentically while giving both yourself and your sweetheart space and time to figure things out. I kinda hate the “pretty mormon picture” mentality, but I can certainly understand how one gets stuck in it. Sometimes I wonder if we LDS don’t understand our own doctrine…..or maybe its that we don’t know how to apply it without the paint by numbers picture. I don’t know….
I thought it would be the end of the world when I thought the church wasn’t true. My favorite parts of my story are the ones that taught me that God was there to help me and guide me thru all of it. I have learned so much about the church and living the gospel from “not living it”. Does that make sense? And I am feeling sure at this point that God was the one who was leading me all along to break the mold that was preventing my growth. And I don’t know if this helps or not, but the more I pray about the history of the church and all the confusing/disturbing details, the more I feel the Lord directing me to the concepts of the Atonement and love/charity and eternal principles behind the practice. Do you find that as interesting as I do? Not that it hasn’t been beneficial to look at JSmiths life and decisions and the human evolutions of the church. I actually feel somewhat liberated to know that the church doesn’t have to be perfect for the miracle to happen and as a result, I don’t have to be perfect either! Yay! I don’t know. I guess what Hawk said about the church not existing or the idea that the thing is just a tool now means a great deal to me. And the ideas of journey and process…..these are joyful and liberating perspectives as well.
Is there a way that you can let your wife have her reactions while stopping yourself from reacting to her? Can you let her get angry or sad or mourn without getting defensive or going against yourself? It would seem to me that all her reactions are normal. I would think it would be understandable if she felt some betrayal at first. She most certainly will if you continue to live a lie. I would hope also that her testimony is more than just going thru the motions and that she understands more about the “pretty picture” than I am giving her credit for. Seems to me like you both need lots of space and love and patience to process everything.
I think there are ways of presenting your concerns that appeal to her most understanding parts. You can tell her what you need and perhaps together negotiate a working space for both of you to figure things through together. Why wouldn’t it be ok for people to struggle with testimony thru their lives? I think sometimes God knows we need renovations. And I think its ok to even start over by scrapping the last set of plans and start drafting a new one even if that means starting from scratch. A new one that fits the needs for the now. A new one that perhaps God is waiting to teach us about.
Best wishes. And know that marriages do survive this and even grow stronger. Mine is a good example and I honestly feel like this trial has helped me feel more love than all my perfectionistic habits of the past.
I would also recommend the faceseast.org forum to your wife. It is a very supportive environment for believing spouses of disaffected mormons. Their focus is on how to build a strong marriage despite differing belief systems. Hi Shattered! I’m glad you found us. I echo the other comments, and hope you can take it easy until the dust settles. Things do get better! I agree with you about not wanting to live a lie (thus my quote below from Orson Pratt) but I also believe there is a way to live harmoniously within the church! I know that thought is probably inconceivable right now – it was to me for most of a year. It takes time to ‘rebuild’ after a major paradigm shift, time AND effort – sort of like learning a new language. But the rewards are well worth it.
Like Rix I feel like I can relate to what you’re going through. Only for me I held my marriage together, and am so glad I did. Each situation is different, but overall I love to see families stay together. In the end my wife really just wanted me to learn how to be friendly with and active in the church. I had to learn to let go of the black/white or absolutist mindset to accomplish this. It wasn’t easy at first, but I think my outlook on life today is so much healthier for it. Many resources, like those that Hawk mentioned, are helpful in this whole process.
It also helps me to know how many other members in the church feel something similar to what I do – I’m not so “odd”!
Hang in there! Glad you’re with us!
Welcome, Shattered. Thanks so much for taking time to share the beginnings of your story. The others have given good responses. I hope you feel welcome in this forum and feel free to explore, share your ideas and experiences, and contribute to the disucssions.
I have felt many of the same things you have expressed, so I wanted to share a couple thoughts of my own as well:
1. I hope it feels of some relief to know you’re not the only one feeling this way. I don’t think God wants you to live a lie. The plan of salvation isn’t “to prove them herewith to see if they will do all things they are commanded, or at least to act like they will do it.” No, I believe it is to find truth (where ever that may be) and live it, and become more God-like, and therefore, more charitable and happy. It has been a hard thing for me to consider doubting the church, or even if God exists, but by doing so, I think I see things more clearly now. I didn’t jettison all my beliefs to come to a better place, I started where I was, doubted one thing after another, and realized there is more to hang on to in the church than there is stuff to take with a grain of salt (but there is definitely some stuff I just have learned to be ok with not having a testimony about). Something I wouldn’t have learned without my growing experience. I hope you find the same, and I hope you find some consolation in knowing others go through a similar development stage, and there is some wisdom knowing everything isn’t black and white.
2. I hope you feel this support website helps see there are alternatives to just throwing everything out that means so much to you through your life, and through your family’s life. This part of your post stood out:
Shattered wrote:The only solution I can see to keep my family together and my marriage intact is to bite my tongue and just keep whistling into the wind. Many people have done much worse than that in their lives, so I guess I can to.
I think there are alternatives to just biting your tongue and enduring life. There is a healthy way for you to satisfy your questions, and still love and support your family, and build relationships in the church. I think it has something to do with charity and understanding God’s love for all His children, in and out of the church. Church isn’t the center of the universe…it is there to help support your family…not hold you guilt-ridden towards it. It is grand enough to be flexible even to your needs, and your wife’s at the same time. It is through the effort to figure out how to reconcile things that you find meaning and value, IMO.I’m still trying to figure it out, but have enjoyed reading many inspiring books that help me see things with more tolerance and love. That way, I don’t have to bite my tongue to my wife, or get critical of other TBMs in my ward, I can simply allow others to believe as they believe, and find a way to become at peace with God that works for me. When I’m not angry, I think my wife is just ok with the “new” me…if my path leads to me being happier, how can it be bad?
I look forward to reading more of your posts and hearing about your situation. Take others’ advice and go slow. There aren’t quick solutions to such profound questions and issues you are raising.
Cheers.
Hi Shattered, I mostly just want to add my concern with the rest of the board members who have answered you and put in another vote for “take it slowly”. For myself I found the only way to constantly not rev up at church was to simply skip out of Sunday School and read something like James Fowler or similar stuff in the car and then go back in for Priesthood. Another alternative is of course to start praying to be called to teach a Primary class that can take care of a lot of problems 😆 (and as it turns out I am working in Primary right now 2 weeks a month).I worked my way back based mostly on my core spiritual experiences which I simply can’t ever deny happened nor explain away as just suggestive psychology. So IF (and you may not and it will be more difficult I admit) you have some of those experiences to hold to just remember them and let them grow.
Hi shattered. I think lots of us have felt all or part of what you feel. I think it’s just great to have this website and know that you are not alone and not crazy and not evil. That is therapeutic in and of itself. The other thing that has really helped me here is just to have an a venue to have open dialogue. It’s a positive place and I am in a better position just being able to have discussions about subjects that cannot be broached at church and often in the home. While I’ve struggled with my faith, I have never wanted to go over to the anti- side, and become part of the bitterness. And still, in spite of it all, I think the church is a good organization and worthy of support. I mean who else has an unpaid clergy? And who else administers welfare so that 100% of your donations help others? And I love being able to help and serve at church farms and canneries.
And I echo the advice to spend some time digesting Jim Fowler’s stuff. It has helped me immensely and given me new hope.
I agree with Bill. I have only attended Sunday School a handful of times in 2 years, and I hit priesthood about every other month. I’m lucky in that I’m membership clerk, so I end up doing a lot of filing, requesting records, updating fast offering packs, during SS and PH. I also bring a book to read if I run out of filing, and I blog a lot about the stuff I’m reading. It’s really made my personal study so fulfilling, and I feel almost as spiritually nourished as I did on my mission. Church is so much more interesting with a book to read on the difference between Consecration vs United Order–I just don’t get that stuff from Sunday School. I know my wife wishes I went to Sunday School more, but on the other hand, she teaches Relief Society, and appreciates it when I can help her add some tidbits to her lesson that are related to the manual. Your wife didn’t marry the church, she married you. This problem is soooo common. We view the church as the only glue that cements our eternal relationship. Honestly, I have to say that I have seen church members that were “married” to the church and not to each other. We all have extremely spiritual experiences at one time or another, share those experiences with your wife. Not to get too personal, but my former spouse (God bless him) suffered from mental illness and was abusive. At one point, he was almost obsessive-compulsive with the church, as some patients with schizophrenia are. He would “parrot” or repeat everything that the General Authorities said, and he seemed to worship them. He would quote his missionary discussions to me as if I had never heard them (I am a returned missionary). I now realize that these were just defenses against the frightening, intrusive thoughts that popped into his mind. I loved him and felt sorrow and compassion for him. Sometimes I just wished that he would stop “listening to the spirit” and listen to me.
Find out what nourishes your wife spiritually. I happen to love the music that can be purchased at Seagull Book and Tape. They have music just for women – I love it!!! While you are there, how about a special piece of art for her. Pray with her. Love her. Hold her hand in church and go with her to support her need for spiritual growth. When you come home, ask her to support your spiritual journey. You like to look at the gospel as a critical thinker. Perhaps you would like books like, James E. Talmage’s, Jesus Christ or some of the books written for serious gospel scholars. You will find God through the “intellectual route”, whilst some, like your wife, will find God through the social associations of the church.
God Bless
P.S. use this forum to vent. You will find that a lot of us “misfits” are scientists, researchers, questioners. Our questioning shows that we are interested in the church and its members.
Keep eating the green jello, have funeral potatoes and be sure to make rice-krispy treats on Halloween!!!!
MWallace57: Quote:“Perhaps you would like books like, James E. Talmage’s, Jesus Christ or some of the books written for serious gospel scholars. You will find God through the “intellectual route”, whilst some, like your wife, will find God through the social associations of the church.”
If you have abandoned the church, then read “Jesus the Christ,” but stop before its final chapter (the restoration). You will find such beauty and tenderness in Talmage’s journey into the life of the Savior. You may find it enough (I have). It may be all I’m capable of just now, but grace gives me hope and I love the personal journey I’m on. Perhaps life is not so much a high mountain, as it is a series of low hills and valleys leading to a eventual redemption at the shore.
My wife and I are very different in how we view spiritual things, but we share a “testimony” of the things that I feel are the most important. I wouldn’t dream of rocking her world just to make myself feel better – and, frankly, that’s what the initial reactions generally are when someone enters a crisis of faith. You might be interested in the following post from long ago:
“My Marriage As a Metaphor for My Church” (
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=238&start=0&hilit=metaphor Shattered wrote:
I think the tips for “staying LDS” in the essay are terrific. I’ve been trying to do that, but …I feel like I’m living a lie. I sit in Sunday School each week and I can’t help but mentally pick apart the lesson, based on the things that I now know happened or happened very much differently that aren’t being talked about on Sunday. I am constantly biting my tongue to keep quiet in class. I have no faith in the Book of Mormon or the other “revelations” given by Joseph Smith. It’s not that I think his revelations/scriptures are “bad”, I just don’t think they’re what Joseph claimed them to be. So many inconsistencies, implausibilities, and misinformation that I’ve just unquestioningly swallowed my whole life without ever really researching or even thinking about them!
A few tips for surviving Sunday School since I have dealt with many of the same frustrations. One thing I do sometimes is just tune out, not listen. I’ll write in my journal or read scriptures-both activities I find enjoyable in moderation. I also see where I can inform people in non-threatening ways, such as slip in a comment about practices surrounding polygamy, etc. I also try to encourage kindness, tolerance and understanding of those who are not Mormon to combat people who tend to promote hard-core fundementalism.At the same time I have come to accept that any impact I individually am going to make is going to be small and to understand that the social dynamic of religion is so complex that I am not going to make major changes anytime soon. I think if you feel major reform has to happen now you are only going to find frustration.
Shattered wrote:
I have expressed my loss of faith to my wife. I’ve even put together a list of “questions that need answers” and asked my wife to read it. She didn’t have much to say about it, except to basically tell me that if I stop going to church or say or do anything that will disrupt her “perfect mormon life” that our family as I know it will fall apart. Perhaps if that’s all that’s holding the marriage together, it deserves to fall apart.
This is a very sensitive subject for many women. Let’s face it their whole lives they are taught to strive for an eternal marriage with the priesthood in their home. Admittedly with my own wife I took it slow and subtlely brought up questions, etc, for about 2 years before I finally broke and told her how I felt about the Church. Our marriage was great when I was faking it and went through a very difficult time after I initially told her and it seems to have kind of moderated now to where things are much better and she seems to accept where I am at though I have appeased her by going to Church and by paying tithing on half of the income (she stays at home). Admittedly if my wife’s parents weren’t so adamantly against divorce in general she probably would have left me during that rough time though. I am happy in some respects to finally have it out how I feel about the Church such that most of the family and some friends know but there was also some advantages to keeping it to myself.
Shattered wrote:
This sucks. The only solution I can see to keep my family together and my marriage intact is to bite my tongue and just keep whistling into the wind. Many people have done much worse than that in their lives, so I guess I can to.If, as the essay posits, there is really no “true church” and mormonism is as good as any other, then I guess this is ok and I’ll just have to learn to cope. But what I’m concerned about is that there IS some true church, maybe it’s “christianity”, I don’t know. But it’s definitely something that I’m digging into pretty hard. All my life I’ve “known” that I had all the answers, and here it turns out that I’m just as clueless as everybody else.
I would recommend slowly working your way out of things that you feel don’t reflect your honest beliefs. Feel free to turn down callings or opportunities to speak. Don’t make comments or agree with things in lessons you don’t agree with. Recognize that you are trapped in the Church because of social practices and not because of belief. That recognition will empower you to take the things in the Church that help you and that uplift you and to avoid or even reject the things in the Church that overwhelm, bore or even offend you. Yes, you can’t change other’s social views but that is true of Mormons and non-Mormons alike. Accept that you can’t quickly change all the social constructs around you (and that is not just religious but even political and other social norms) and that you can slowly move things in the right direction by expressing your honest views as much as possible without tearing yourself from the family and friends that you care about.
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