- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
canadiangirl wrote:
Ummmm…. I had no idea the GA got even a stipend. I thought that most of their expenses would be covered but I thought they lived on their retirement or revenue from their books. Who knew.
😯
I was always taught that was the definition of ‘priestcraft’. Oh, well. Another misconception falls by the wayside.Fwiw, the difference with priestcraft as traditionally defined is that someone preaches for the money as their primary motivation. Given that definition, I believe there are relatively few people who practice priestcraft – maybe even among televangelists. I am convinced the vast majority of paid preachers don’t fit that definition.
Cadence wrote:During tithing settlement the BIship as I knew he would told my family of all the marvelouse blessings assiciated with tithing. However since I knew this was coming I told him my take on it. I said I did not pay tithing expecting any kind of reward whatsoever. I simply paid becasue the church needs the money to operate and I attend church so I do not want to be a slacker and not carry my weight. In fact I told him that looking for a blessing for me personally was a dangerous thing becasue once there is an expectation of a reward I will most likely be disappointed when I do not recieve it. It is a dangerous thing I said to count on someting as intangebile as a blessing for tithing payment. I am much better off paying just becasue I wamt to help out. If some good comes from my donation to others so much the better. My reward would be to see others benefit from my offering.
This approch has taken the burden from my life of always looking for that reward for payng tithing.
As someone who had this very same dangerous and unrealistic expectation and had the rug pulled out from under me, I congratulate you on your more balanced perspective.
But I find myself wondering- If I wouldn’t approve of promised “marvelous blessings” as your bishop has done, nor would I approve of the “pay it or burn” approach of my bishop- Exactly what form of tithing motivation would I approve of?
:crazy: I like the idea of simply focusing on what paying tithing helps you become as a person. However, that’s a higher motive….and that doesn’t always motivate. I think someone once identified the heirarchy of motives: 1. Fear of punishment
2. Expectation of Reward
3. Duty
4. Love of others
I think “good for my character” belongs in there, perhaps near duty.
Been thinking some more about it and came to the conclusion I good not in good conscience pay tithing as I had in the past. I really believe that you have a responsibility to be diligent with your donations to know with the best of your ability and the information available where the money is going. Not sure the tithing funds fit the bill on that. So as I stated earlier I did pay some tithing to support my families place in the church, but not so much as in years past. I gave alot more to fast offering, and made donations to other organizations that hopefully will get those donations to those in need. It is not perfect but somehow I feel much better after setting money aside all year to be able to have a choice who it will help. Cadence wrote:I gave alot more to fast offering, and made donations to other organizations that hopefully will get those donations to those in need. It is not perfect but somehow I feel much better after setting money aside all year to be able to have a choice who it will help.
I totally respect that. I also like the way you set the money aside all year long to give you the options of how you will donate it. That is way cool and something I want to challenge myself to do this coming year.Thanks for sharing.
For me personally, paying tithing (or whatever donations) represents me letting go. It is a hard act for me. It is a subject in my mind tied to security and safety, and I stress about it a lot. The act of letting go, with a symbolic sacrifice, is the act of letting go of my anxiety, letting it just … go …
See Brian? Nothing bad happened. And actually, something good came of it.
Brian Johnston wrote:For me personally,
paying tithing (or whatever donations) represents me letting go. It is a hard act for me. It is a subject in my mind tied to security and safety, and I stress about it a lot…The act of letting go, with a symbolic sacrifice, is the act of letting go of my anxiety, letting it just … go …See Brian? Nothing bad happened. And actually, something good came of it. That’s how I used to think about it too but I just couldn’t do it anymore because the amount they are asking members to let go of seems completely outrageous, pointless, and unnecessary to me. I could see the 10% amount making some sense as a reasonable sacrifice if people could really use all of their income any way they want but when people already have to pay all kinds of bills and taxes I don’t see how it makes any sense at all to expect members to continue to pay 10% of gross or even net income especially when the Church already has more money than they know what to do with at this point.
If strictly interpreted as gross or net income, it seems like this will put the most difficult burdens on some of the poorest members and single-income families because basic living expenses will already tie up such a high percentage of their earnings. As far as I’m concerned it is just an uninspired tradition that has far outlived its usefulness because the amount the Church has been collecting recently is so much in excess of what they really need to operate at this point but at the same time it is high on the list of potential deal-breakers for serious investigators or existing members. That’s why I would just pay 10% of any real “increase” left over after paying all my bills and taxes and not feel guilty about it either if I really wanted to get a temple recommend again because it just doesn’t make sense to hand over nearly as much as they are asking for.
I don’t currently pay tithing in the usual sense, for a variety of reasons. I was never very good at it even before my views and my life changed. But that is how I currently make meaning out of it. Just wanted to clarify my comment above. I’ve never been a super awesome and faithful tithing payer. There are powerful aspects to the practice and the concept IMO though.
[quote=”DevilsAdvocate As far as I’m concerned it is just an uninspired tradition that has far outlived its usefulness because the amount the Church has been collecting recently is so much in excess of what they really need to operate at this point but at the same time it is high on the list of potential deal-breakers for serious investigators or existing members. .[/quote] Curious how any average member would know for sure that the church has more money than needed. It is proably true but I can not find any evidence of it other than conjecture.
This has been a very interesting thread. I am still paying a full 10% on my gross because I thought that in Malachi it stated that we should be giving 10% back to the Lord. But I re-read it and it doesn’t give an amount, just that we should be paying it. Does anyone know if there is somewhere that has the amount specified?
Cadence wrote:DevilsAdvocate wrote:As far as I’m concerned it is just an uninspired tradition that has far outlived its usefulness because the amount the Church has been collecting recently is so much in excess of what they really need to operate at this point but at the same time it is high on the list of potential deal-breakers for serious investigators or existing members.
Curious how any average member would know for sure that the church has more money than needed. It is proably true but
I can not find any evidence of it other than conjecture.The fact that they spent 3 billion dollars on a mall is all the evidence that I will ever need to feel confident about assuming that they already have way more money than they know what to do with. Also, there was an article in Time Magazine in the late 1990s titled “Mormons, Inc.” that talked about some of the real estate and businesses they owned at that point so I assume they did their homework to verify this information.
I guess I’m just not as strict about what I consider sufficient evidence to start inferring meaning from it. For example, when I see all these new temples when I could just as easily drive 30-40 minutes to several more it doesn’t exactly look to me like the Church is really hurting for money. But by all means don’t take my word for it; if you want to believe that they really need this much money from the average member to continue to operate I suppose your guess is as good as mine because it’s not like they are telling us exactly how much money they are getting from members or how it is all being used.
Butters wrote:This has been a very interesting thread. I am still paying a full 10% on my gross because I thought that in Malachi it stated that we should be giving 10% back to the Lord. But I re-read it and it doesn’t give an amount, just that we should be paying it…Does anyone know if there is somewhere that has the amount specified?
Tithing literally means tenth and D&C 119:4 specifically talks about requiring members to pay one-tenth of their “interest” annually. My point is that I don’t see how it is really fair or accurate to try to define “interest” as gross income for everyone when so many members already have to spend so much of this income just to pay their mortgage/rent, car payments and other bills, taxes, groceries, etc. It just doesn’t add up and it looks to me like an impractical half-baked opinion that has been passed off as doctrine so far.
A little history lesson on Tithing – thanks TexasRX from NOM. TexasRX says that he had a personal conversation with Elder Jensen who told him that GA’s get paid 95K/per year salary.
Quote:Note… For about 40 years during the mid to late 1800’s, Church leaders did NOT pay tithing. Now they pay tithing on everything they earn. This does not include reimbursements for expenses they incur while performing their duties.
These are notes from my “Research Journal” concerning tithing. I didn’t note my source (bad of me), but there are some sites on the internet that have this documented and verified.
• 1831 – 2% of Net Worth (after deducting debts).
• 1838 – 10% of all Gross Worth upon membership to the Church, then 10% on any increases afterwards.
• 1844 – The Apostles required all members to pay 10% of their Total Worth (even if they had already paid the 10% of Gross Worth upon membership (noted in bullet above)), in addition to 10% of increases afterwards. At the same time, the Apostles exempted themselves from paying tithing.
• 1851 – Brigham Young instituted a “penalty” for failure to pay tithing. The penalty was excommunication. At the same time, the Church once again ordered an initial Gross Worth tithing. (Note: It was estimated that less than 1% of that was ever paid).
• 1880 – John Taylor initiated a “Jubilee Year”, in which ½ of all delinquent tithing was forgiven (if the tithe payer would pay the other ½ immediately). This did not work.
• 1881 – John Taylor decided that all members (including Apostles) must be tithe payers. So between 1844 and 1881, the leaders of the Church (including Stake/Area Presidents) did not have to pay tithing.
cwald wrote:A little history lesson on Tithing – thanks TexasRX from NOM.
TexasRX says that he had a personal conversation with Elder Jensen who told him that GA’s get paid 95K/per year salary.
Plus expenses I assume. Do you think the apostles get more?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.