How do TBM view StayLDS?

[Anonymous]

Here is a post made by “one” individual on another website. The issue being discussed was dealing with the historical authenticy of the BoM.

Quote:

I have a difficult time understanding how anyone could accept the BofM in some sort of middle ground view–part fiction, part history. It is either true or false–what evidence is there to suggest a middle ground?

Those who buy into the middle ground view must also have a middle ground view of God; that is, he isn’t what he says he is.

I suggest the middle ground view of the Book of Mormon is just a rung on the ladder to becoming a middle ground mormon (New Order Mormon) like came into vogue (see Helaman 3:33, 4:11,3 Nephi 14:23).

In case you’re wondering, here are the scriptures:

Quote:

Hel 3:33 And in the *fifty and first year of the reign of the judges there was peace also, save it were the pride which began to enter into the church—not into the church of God, but into the hearts of the people who professed to belong to the church of God—

Hel 4:11 Now this great loss of the Nephites, and the great slaughter which was among them, awould not have happened had it not been for their wickedness and their abomination which was among them; yea, and it was among those also who professed to belong to the church of God.

3Nephi 14:23 And then will I profess unto them: I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Just makes me want to puke I tell ya. I know this came from just one guy, BUT this is the kind of attitude and opinion that has swamped my church experience for years. This kind of statement that I am “wicked and abominable and work iniquity” because of my “faith” is what makes it so hard to remain a part of the mormon church.

Ray, I’m telling you, there is NO WAY that I would have kept my cool after looking up those scriptures. I’m still little a hot under the collar from some WoW comments made, like, “is a cup of coffee worth giving up your church and priesthood blessings for.” I’ll get over it.

Good job over there Ray.

[Anonymous]

It can be hurtful. I have seen this site and John Dehlin called a “wolf in sheep’s clothing” several times on a couple other boards. I have also seen believers in the same threads say that they can see the good in this project. We can’t paint with a broad brush. Many just won’t understand and see it as a threat to their testimony. Others are more compassionate and try to be understanding. I think it is hard for those who have never had a trial of faith or been faced with faith shaking information.

[Anonymous]

I have no doubt that many TBMs (particularly the “iron-rod” types) think “we’ve” already apostacized and are on our way to our burnings! My step-father thinks John Dehlin IS the anti-Christ (he saw the “Why do they Leave” podcast, and we heard about it all night!).

There are really many types of mormons…my guess is that the majority of active members don’t know more than 10% of the historical issues and challenges. The ones that know a little more, and have listened/read the FARMS/FAIR responses to them are comfortable the challenges are all false and purely anti-mormon. Those of us that have dug into the issues have had to create a whole new way of looking at religion and spirituality in general…and the others have no concept of that process.

So like we say here, there are many parts of the orchestra, and many that play the violin have no concept of how to play a woodwind!

😆

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

Here is a post made by “one” individual on another website. The issue being discussed was dealing with the historical authenticy of the BoM.

Quote:

I have a difficult time understanding how anyone could accept the BofM in some sort of middle ground view–part fiction, part history. It is either true or false–what evidence is there to suggest a middle ground?

Those who buy into the middle ground view must also have a middle ground view of God…I suggest the middle ground view of the Book of Mormon is just a rung on the ladder to becoming a middle ground mormon (New Order Mormon) like came into vogue (see Helaman 3:33, 4:11,3 Nephi 14:23).

…Just makes me want to puke I tell ya. I know this came from just one guy, BUT this is the kind of attitude and opinion that has swamped my church experience for years. This kind of statement that I am “wicked and abominable and work iniquity” because of my “faith” is what makes it so hard to remain a part of the mormon church.

I think many TBMs haven’t seriously considered the possibility that the Church might not actually be everything that it claims to be. This idea is inconceivable to some of them so they assume that anyone who disagrees with this is fundamentally wrong and needs to repent of their lack of faith. To them, doubts are a problem that can and should be fixed, not accommodated and tolerated as a long term solution. If you already think you have the truth, then why bother to ask many questions? All the answers you need are already provided for you by the Church as long as you are satisfied with these explanations. I try not to let this attitude bother me too much because I really don’t think they know any better in many cases like this.

[Anonymous]

cwald, I have a soft spot for the person who wrote that, even though I decided to go ahead and try to explain to him why so many people read his comments and get upset at him. He is a good, sincere believer – and he has had some incredibly powerful experiences. Now, some people might disagree that those experiences are “real” and what he believes them to be, but I can’t go there. They might be objectively real and true, and they might be hallucinations, and they might be anywhere in between – but they are real to him. I know that, and I actually do want his voice to be heard. I was trying to help him see WHY his comments are perceived as they are – and, at root, it’s primarily because he doesn’t appear to understand or value anything but his own perspective – believing that anyone can experience what he experienced and chalking up someone’s lack of such experiences to lack of faith and effort.

I can understand why he feels that way, especially since he admits that he had “strayed” or “been lax” prior to his experiences. He actually is a fairly humble guy, at least from the perspective of the reason for his inability to understand. (“If even someone like me can have this type of experience, surely anyone else can, as well, if they just believe and dedicate themselves like I did.”) I really don’t think he’s arrogant; I think he simply doesn’t get it.

I’m like that sometimes, and so is everyone else here. I also lapse sometimes and type comments that show I sometimes just don’t get it. I understand him, I think, so I don’t get upset at him – and, for the record, my response to him was not made from a position of anger or being upset in any way. I just thought about it and felt like being very direct might be the only way to help him begin to see how he came across.

I probably should have sent him a personal, private e-mail – but I also wanted to have the chance publicly in that forum to make a follow-up comment telling him that I value his input and want his voice to be heard. I actually want quite a few people over there to read and learn something from his perspective, but that won’t happen if they automatically dismiss his comments without reading them – or if they bristle the minute they see his name. So, I weighed the options and decided on the public response. I’m not sure it was the correct one, and I still second-guess myself about it, but it seemed right at the time.

As to the question in the title, I think we are seen by faithful members as at all different points. I know many are grateful for what we are trying to do, since I’ve had numerous people say that; I know many are unsure about us; I know many don’t understand or want to understand; I know many think we foster apostasy. That’s fine, as long as I am comfortable with my participation – and I am.

Also, for the record, I personally don’t like the acronym “TBM” – since it’s almost always used as a pejorative insult. Seriously, it’s no different in practical use most of the time than the way “New Order Mormon” was used in the quote in the post. That’s worth considering, imo.

[Anonymous]

My general response to TBM types that are so critical of NOM types is; you would be the same as me if you had made the effort to see the whole picture. But as long as fear makes you look at everything through a peep hole so to speak you are going to get a very narrow view. Just because you only see one path does not mean there are not others that get to the same general place.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

Here is a post made by “one” individual on another website. The issue being discussed was dealing with the historical authenticy of the BoM.

Quote:

Those who buy into the middle ground view must also have a middle ground view of God; that is, he isn’t what he says he is.

I suggest the middle ground view of the Book of Mormon is just a rung on the ladder to becoming a middle ground mormon

Wow, whoever said this on the other board is brilliant! I completely agree! (with his words, not his intent).

I take it as a compliment.

I like the way buddhism describes the “middle way” – which is not a compromise in standards or beliefs, but instead think of the triangle, where the middle position is at the top of the apex, a position above both extremes on the right and the left. It is a higher way to think about arguments from both sides that the Book of Mormon is true, and it is also not true.

It bridges the ideas between people who are faithful in the church and the good people they are, and the people who are either against the church or not in the church. It bridges all thoughts and extremes and values all those opinions that can help or benefit me in better understanding God’s plan for me.

God is beyond what words can express, in my opinion. So of course I am trying to accept He cannot be what the scriptures or other mortals say He is. He is beyond words, if that makes any sense.

I like the idea that the middle way is another rung in the ladder…a step up in my journey and my enlightenment.

[Anonymous]

Wow Heber, you are one hell of a “glass half full” type of a guy.

I love it.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

Also, for the record, I personally don’t like the acronym “TBM” – since it’s almost always used as a pejorative insult. Seriously, it’s no different in practical use most of the time than the way “New Order Mormon” was used in the quote in the post. That’s worth considering, imo.

I can think of worse names to call them. Actually, I like the TBM acronym because it is a quick way to identify a certain kind of Mormon that we all know and love. In fact, I was a TBM myself for years and I wouldn’t have been offended by someone calling me that at all, I would have been proud of it. Even when I have been inactive in the back of my mind I still believed in it all and didn’t really question the Church much until the last few years when the doubts really started to weigh on my mind and I couldn’t put them all back on the shelf anymore.

Most TBMs that might be offended by this probably don’t spend much time reading websites where this term is typically used anyway. It seems like the TBMs who do comment on these sites are fairly confident and into apologetic arguments so they should at least understand the basic reasons for this distinction between TBMs and other Mormons who are not so sure about everything the Church teaches because they already know about some of the common problems critics have with the Church.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

Wow Heber, you are one he** of a “glass half full” type of a guy.

some days, more so than other days, I guess.

I just find it ironic a person can say to you

Quote:

It is either true or false–what evidence is there to suggest a middle ground?

and then quote scriptures about how pride was among the nephites, and tell you that proves they are right (displaying pride).

Everything is perspective. And there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the middle ground perspective is valid.

There are multiple versions of the First Vision account;

The American Indians were taught they were the descendents of the Lamanites and then we are not sure the American Indians are Lamanites;

Polygamy was right and then it was wrong;

Interpretations of the bible justified discriminating against blacks and then God revealed that was not correct;

Joseph Smith prophesied things that came true and he prophesied things that didn’t come true;

Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham from scrolls, and then maybe we don’t think it came directly from scrolls;

The temple ceremony is the same as what was done in Solomon’s day, but we have changed it several times in the past 180 years.

…shall we go on? A person who doesn’t believe there is paradox in religion and only thinks in binary terms, probably hasn’t taken time to research their religion very much.

[Anonymous]

I was one of those TBM types for a long time. At the same time I realized that I could never be “worthy or righteous” by the LDS’s definition of it. It is not possible to be worthy and repent fully of our sins because that requires keeping ALL the commandments. We have Spencer Kimball to thank for that hamster wheel. I know his intentions were good but the M of Forgiveness has done more damage than good IMO.

I wanted to be ALL IN in the LDS church because I have always wanted give God my whole heart and serve Him confidently EVERY DAY. That was and still is my desire. Not to be self-righteous. I just firmly believe that peace, joy, being PRESENT, and the good life is best found in making Christ a daily part of our lives. I don’t believe that many doctrines of the LDS church support people coming to Christ in that way. Their way is much more humanistic and Pharisaical.

I still go to the LDS church every Sunday because my wife and children are still active members- and I love them. I respect their beliefs in Joseph Smith and current prophets even though I am completely convinced that they are dead wrong. I will continue to support my wife and children in the church until they no longer find it supportive. I also attend a non-denominational Christian Church every Sunday. I love it.

I understand that people do not want to upset family relationships, careers, friendships, etc and that is why many stay somewhat active in the LDS church. Or they believe in many of the doctrines and can rationalize the ones that don’t make sense. I believe that there is only 1 faith that saves us. When someone suggests that “you just have to have faith” in whatever issue or doctrine is troubling- I take issue. Faith in anything else or anyone else besides the Son of God is not saving faith and therefore up for debate and criticism. How can it be any other way? We have to be able to judge any man or doctrine that is claiming to be divine- both past, present and future.

I have come to my conclusions about the LDS Church- and I just want others to find the peace and freedom that exists in Christ alone. As long as we have that then we can go to any church we want imo- because therein lies ultimate freedom.

I know many of you here disagree with me and I respect your right to believe as you will- that is a God given right. I am finally at peace and my wife and I are making it work. I also want to help other couples who are in my same position- where one spouse is TBM “like” and the other no longer has faith in the LDS religion but retains firm faith in Christ. The journey is going to be an interesting one.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I know many of you here disagree with me.

Just out of curiosity, why do you say that – and what exactly do you mean?

We all see various things differently, and we all reach our own conclusions, but I’d like to know what you mean when you say that you know many of us here disagree with you.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Just out of curiosity, why do you say that – and what exactly do you mean?

I have read a lot of posts and can readily see that there are many different “world views” and “God views” and “church views”. That’s all I mean Ray. You have it out for me, don’t you.

Why do you ask? What do you think I meant?

[Anonymous]

Quote:

You have it out for me, don’t you.

No, sir, I don’t. I don’t “have it in” for anyone here or anywhere else – period.

We all disagree with each other on lots of things, so I honestly wasn’t sure what you meant when you said many of us disagree with you. Obviously, I disagree with some of your views, but I agree with others. That’s true of my position relative to every person here, however, including the admins and moderators. There is NO consensus on anything here; we really do disagree with each other in some way on almost everything we discuss.

[Anonymous]

I had an extremely humbling experience today. I got asked to help a missionary talk to a guy who was Hindu, with no Christian background, doesn’t know much about the Bible etc. We talked with him and got him to say his first prayer. It was honestly one of the most moving experiences I’ve had for a long time. His prayer was so sincere, unpretentious and heartfelt, even though English wasn’t his first language, and it was short, and he was unsure of what he was doing. That was some hours ago, but I truly felt the Spirit (as they say), and that I had helped him do something good. It was like watching a child’s first step, and was so different to some of the staid prayers we sometimes see from more established members.

Now here’s the rub. People know from what I’ve said here that I’ve been inactive, done things that would make many folk blush, and my own beliefs regarding the church are distinctly heterodox. I don’t dislike Thomas S. Monson, but I have yet to develop a strong testimony of him. You get the picture.

But I really do feel that I saw something so basic, so heartfelt and moving, and it’s amazing that even a backslider and a retrograde like myself could have been part of that. I feel glad that I helped with this. I believe it shows that we all have a part to play, no matter what our position or standing (and I don’t have a temple recommend as yet, but I’m working on it!) in bringing some light into this world.

Happiness and good don’t always lie in the more complex teachings, but the simplest actions.

[Author]

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