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That’s a very beautiful story Sam… It sounds like you had a very neat day. As Mormons, our tradition of thinking that only the super clean-living folks are blessed to be used by God is wearing a little thin IMHO. He seems to use us as we are.
Do you have any idea of how many missionaries never had the privelege of what you just did?
Too cool…
That really is profound, Sam. Thank you. I agree it is MUCH more important to do than to know – and I really do love that “The Church” asks us to do so much, even if it sometimes is too much. I think the key is to be in tune personally with what I can do – then do it, all the while asking that I be made able to do more.
I think TBMs who view StayLDS may be suspicious in the same way a person who has never been sick views a hospital (that’s where you go to “get sick” not to “get well”) or the way a person who has never been old or had someone they love grow old might view a retirement home. It makes them uncomfortable because it is unfamiliar. But those who have never been sick also have less immunity. I would never deliberately infect someone with lower immunity, obviously! I think it’s easy to associate the patient with the disease when it’s an unfamiliar illness. And I don’t mean to imply that we folks are sick – on the contrary, we are building immunity. My3GirlsDad wrote:
I have come to my conclusions about the LDS Church- and I just want others to find the peace and freedom that exists in Christ alone. As long as we have that then we can go to any church we want imo- because therein lies ultimate freedom.Quote:I’m not quite sure why that makes me feel a little uneasy. I can understand the sentiment about feeling the exists from faith in Christ but when you add the alone part it reminds me what it feels like to be proselyted. I respect where you are but I don’t think it may be the only place to be.
GBSmith wrote:My3GirlsDad wrote:
I have come to my conclusions about the LDS Church- and I just want others to find the peace and freedom that exists in Christ alone. As long as we have that then we can go to any church we want imo- because therein lies ultimate freedom.Quote:I THINK this is okay. I THINK it is a fundamental tenant of StayLDS. Once we find peace in Christ, We can go to any church we want, right? — and if that church happens to be the mormon church, why should ANYONE care? Afterall, isn’t the mormon church a valid pathway to enlightenment? Of course I’m being flippant – to help make your point GB. I can’t believe I’m going to say this — I’m starting to “get” why the TBM types (my family) get so upset with guys like me. I tend to be VERY VERY lenient on almost every religion and belief system on this planet, with the exception of the mormon church. Why? Why do all the other churches and belief systems get a free pass, and folks like me just scrutinize the hell out of the LDS religion? I suppose it all comes down to that “the one and only true church” quotation that haunts so many TMBs (myself included once upon a time.) But once one can get over that misplaced and perhaps misinterpreted thought, things can start to come into a little more focus.
I think part of the LDS problem is a siege mentality. I’ve been meaning to post on that for a while. The church and its members often see themselves under attack, partly as a hangover from more violent times, partly maybe because of the old polygamy witchhunts, and more recently because of more hostile anti-cultists and members of some other churches. Sometimes we play right into their hands, by trying to cloud certain issues, hiding the past, or acting defensive. Sometimes the church as an institution gives itself a bad image by expelling members whose beliefs are somewhat different e.g. September Six. When that happens you get a vicious circle.
I also think that the Hoffman fiasco was partly as a result of the siege mentality.
Temple rituals are quite well known now, and can even be seen described in detail in various books and programs (not Ed Decker!!!), so I almost wonder what the point in hiding them is anymore. Like Freemasonry, the cat’s out of the bag.
Sometimes we get so caught up in the defensive, we forget about the things that really matter. For example, the church emphasizes family, but if you are doing so many callings and work for the church, you’re neglecting your family, that is actually a bad thing in the long run, and some of the children may associate the church with that… and children will not have a positive view of their father. Likewise if someone is bullied by local hierarchies for being different or “intellectual”, then that will help drive other people out.
SamBee wrote:I think part of the LDS problem is a siege mentality. I’ve been meaning to post on that for a while.
The church and its members often see themselves under attack, partly as a hangover from more violent times, partly maybe because of the old polygamy witchhunts, and more recently because of more hostile anti-cultists and members of some other churches. Sometimes we play right into their hands, by trying to cloud certain issues, hiding the past, or acting defensive. Sometimes the church as an institution gives itself a bad image by expelling members whose beliefs are somewhat different e.g. September Six. When that happens you get a vicious circle.
Very good post — I couldn’t agree more.
Absolutely, Sam. I agree completely. Thanks! It’s probably worth a thread to itself. I notice Jews suffer from the same problem – accusations of clannishness and conspiracy, as well as exclusion and violence to them, have led to many of them becoming clannish, defensive and exclusive, and some of the worse aspects of Zionism. Not that I’m saying that the persecution of the LDS is anything on the level of anti-Semitism…
Which brings me to that Nietzsche quote I mentioned before… “The man who fights too long against dragons becomes a dragon himself”
Sam, consider this: Many people complain that the LDS Church is mainstreaming too much – but maybe it’s just a natural movement away from fighting dragons in battles that don’t need to be fought anymore (or letting go of notions about perceived or former dragons that aren’t seen as dragons anymore).
I can see it both ways Ray. * Less fighting of dragons, so a more likable version emerges…
Or
* Fighting the dragons (other churches) has made the LDS a little too like them.
Actually on second thoughts, I see a mixture of these two being the future. I think GBH’s woolly statements to Larry King along the lines of “I’m not sure we teach that” to be a product of the second. I see Pres. Uchtdorff’s GC speech about the statue, and “you are my hands” being the first.
However, the Mormon prophet is an accepted political figure, and I sense that in the USA, the LDS is seen as a strict although not entirely unusual church. It’s not quite as mainstream as the Seventh Day Adventists and Unitarians have become, but it’s more so than the Moonies.
There are some beliefs we don’t have to drop. They’re what makes the LDS Mormon. What would the LDS be without prophets, the Book of Mormon, temples and so on? Sure, we can ditch the racism, blood atonement etc, but not these.
GBSmith wrote: Quote:I’m not quite sure why that makes me feel a little uneasy. I can understand the sentiment about feeling the exists from faith in Christ but when you add the alone part it reminds me what it feels like to be proselyted.
I do believe that “my way” is the best way to live. That is why I live and believe the way I do- and I don’t apologize for it. But I equally expect others to be convinced that “their way” is the best too. I don’t take offense to it- I think we
should beconvinced that we are living the best way. I lived in doubt for far too long- and it is not a good place to be in many ways. Some doubt can be helpful but too much can be disastrous imo. I think it best to live with complete apathy for the things that just don’t matter, complete confidence, and complete love. I readily admit that I
dowant others to feel and claim the peace the I have come to know after a very long struggle. But I believe that the peace of which I speak is personal. It is not found in any religion or through faith in any person or thing or practice. Because that is the case we can all keep attending the LDS church and find complete peace there. So let’s StayLDS!! but with benefits. 
I respect that completely, M3GD, as you worded it. I really do, so let me probe a bit deeper, if you don’t mind – again, simply to understand more fully what you have said in other comments. Quote:It is not found in any religion or through faith in any person or thing or practice.
Why do you insist, then, that Jesus be the foundation – or am I mis-reading your message?
Old-Timer wrote:
Quote:Why do you insist, then, that Jesus be the foundation – or am I mis-reading your message?
No- you hit it right on the head. The reason I “insist” (respectfully, I hope) is because no other philosophy claims the redemption that Christ offers. Do other philosophies claim complete justification before God through faith in Someone who atoned for individual sins? Are other philosophies brazen enough to say that they are the ONLY “Way, Truth and Life”?I believed in the LDS religion with all my heart for 23 years. I beat the hell out of myself on many occasions because they don’t teach a consistent message of Redemption. It confused me for so long that the harder I tried to “be worthy of the Spirit” the more aware I became of my imperfections. Then I found out that there are so many issues that were purposefully withheld from me by people that I trusted and respected. I know their motives were pure but the practice of concealment is almost criminal.
Looking for personal worthiness in ourselves is like looking for the Great Wall of China in Brazil. You will drive yourself crazy until you start looking elsewhere. Redemption and worthiness is found in Christ alone by faith. And they (R&W) are here and now- not later or somewhere else.
Sorry if I hi-jacked this thread. I answered your question in a different way in another thread. Let me know if I need to to something to get this back on topic.
Maybe this will help: I think the TBM view StayLDS as the lukewarmers. By my definition of TBM
Maybe this will help: I think the TBM view StayLDS as the lukewarmers. By my definition of TBM
M3GD, great way to bring it back on topic.But I would disagree with the last two sentences. I do not pity my family members who I think fit the TBM description. In many ways, I admire them and envy them, and I truly think they are on a grand path, and they are very happy, and it really works for them. I don’t agree with them, but that doesn’t make me right and them wrong…just that I’m a different kinda person and God can work with me differently than He can with them. I honestly believe that, and do not think God must enlighten them in time. They can very well stay on the track they are on and continue to receive even greater light and knowledge to make them great people.
But after my crisis…I have changed. I look at my world differently. I cannot go back to how I was (TBM), so I must move forward finding my own path that works for me, and change your last sentence to restate it this way:
Quote:But God is great and He will bring
MEgreater peace and understanding in time. This, I believe, even if my bishop and my families members worry about me.
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