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Rix wrote:
So when I learned that some were actually false stories, I questioned what I had felt. At the very least, it was clear to me that this “spirit” was not a confirmation of the historical truth of the story! So how might that apply to those testing Moroni’s promise? What happens when one uses the same principle to test another religion’s scriptures (one that conflicts with ours) and has an equally powerful result? Do we conclude that theirs was not quite as powerful as ours?
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A bit more simply, we feel that way when we make sense of it (when it fits our schema of life), when others praise us for our decisions or actions, when in the stillness we sense the gratitude of our consciousness and existence, when we feel the unity with others and nature, human courage and victory in challenging circumstances, and…I’ll leave it there for now.
Rix, well said! I like your recipe.This is a fascinating post and includes some thoughts that I have contemplated quite a lot. ALmost the most fascinating thing to me is how often you’ve felt the burning in the bosom, not even that its been contradictory! I begged, fasted and pleaded for SOMETHING for at least a year before I FINALLY got something! My “spiritual” sensation comes in the form of an overwhelming warmth that completely surrounds me. Its not within me but outside of me. But, like yours, feels like a hug from something bigger. I agree with so many of the comments and ideas that were stated before me. I no longer look to these “spiritual” sensations to tell me “TRUTH”. They are just blissful moments that I want to GO with! I want more of them. ANd if I find them somewhere than I want to keep on going to that place. And I don’t always have these at church. Half the time I attend and think it would have been better if I’d stayed home and spent time outside or being with my kids. But I do have little blissful moments there from time to time. I have spiritual sensations when reading books, when in nature, when loving my family, when I’m serving someone, watching movies/documentaries, jogging or cycling, reading great quotes or listening to a really great song. But they’re almost always related to my identifying with some ones human experience. I tend to believe these feelings are God but they are not expressing truth, its just expressing love. God is LOVE. And when you feel this overwhelming sensation of love, everyone around you is perfect and wonderful, every idea in your head is peaceful and wonderful and this peace is what can cause us to mistake our thoughts for truth…just what I think. I am completely open to the idea and even sometimes think that these feelings are my own creation. But that makes less sense to me so I don’t dwell on it. I think that God is much more hands off in this world. He has blessed us all with this moral sense, this guiding light, light of Christ if you will, and he will judge us based upon our following it or not. And I think it is very individual and unique. We all have a personal journey and this is where the whole “ONe and Only True Church” idea becomes so bothersome to me. Great post…thanks for sharing it with us!
RuthandI wrote:I agree with so many of the comments and ideas that were stated before me. I no longer look to these “spiritual” sensations to tell me “TRUTH”. They are just blissful moments that I want to GO with! I want more of them.
I love how you said that. It is how I see this process now. I can’t prove to anyone or even myself that this is THE “Holy Spirit.” I just know that it happens when I am peaceful, loving, controlled, open, compassionate and all kings of other attributes associated with the religion I try to practice (the ideal, not always the reality). I can’t prove what it is, but it is good. It makes me want to be good. It makes me stretch and want to go a direction that feels good. It doesn’t tell me some factual truth. It just encourages me to try and figure it out, and know that I am embraced with love and acceptance in my exploration and life journey. That sounds a lot like Grace and Mercy, and let’s call the source the Atonement of Christ.
It feels good, so I want more. Is there any better reason? It’s like selfish selflessness.
Valoel wrote:RuthandI wrote:I agree with so many of the comments and ideas that were stated before me. I no longer look to these “spiritual” sensations to tell me “TRUTH”. They are just blissful moments that I want to GO with! I want more of them.
I love how you said that. It is how I see this process now. I can’t prove to anyone or even myself that this is THE “Holy Spirit.” I just know that it happens when I am peaceful, loving, controlled, open, compassionate and all kings of other attributes associated with the religion I try to practice (the ideal, not always the reality). I can’t prove what it is, but it is good. It makes me want to be good. It makes me stretch and want to go a direction that feels good. It doesn’t tell me some factual truth. It just encourages me to try and figure it out, and know that I am embraced with love and acceptance in my exploration and life journey. That sounds a lot like Grace and Mercy, and let’s call the source the Atonement of Christ.
It feels good, so I want more. Is there any better reason? It’s like selfish selflessness.
Wow! I love both of these…and agree completely! I think many get into trouble when they do try to attach the spiritual experience to “this is true.” The problem comes when one’s experience is interpreted to “confirm” one thing…then when another gets a different confirmation, the argument occurs as to which is right. In my spiritual journey, I’ve also learned to feel the spirit…but I’ve tried not to analyze it too much.
I just like it, and that’s all I need!
Rix wrote:I had a cog-dis time years back when I learned of Paul Dunn’s somewhat inaccurate stories. My conflict was that I had been deeply touched by his faith promoting stories — to the point that I had considered the “spirit” I felt as testimony of the truthiness of the church. And of course many of my leaders confirmed that to me.
So when I learned that some were actually false stories, I questioned what I had felt. At the very least, it was clear to me that this “spirit” was not a confirmation of the historical truth of the story! So how might that apply to those testing Moroni’s promise? What happens when one uses the same principle to test another religion’s scriptures (one that conflicts with ours) and has an equally powerful result? Do we conclude that theirs was not quite as powerful as ours?
My thinking has evolved dramatically on this issue. You may not want to hear what I believe today…but I’ll tell you anyway
a unique mixture of hormones — a good mixture of dopamine, seratonin and other endorphins, that are triggered by focused thoughts, amplified at times by injected pharmaceutical agents and/or fasting blood sugar…all which lead to a feeling of extreme well-being, confidence, self-love, and love for all creations of…”GOD!”(yes, I made that up!)
😆 When my husband heard about the Paul Dunn fabrications, it really upset him. We were both big fans of him and had listened to all his tapes and especially loved his war stories. My husband had never gotten a spiritual witness to Moroni’s promise, but kept on in the church because of the thing in the D& C about ‘some having the gift to believe on the words of others’ (or something to that effect.) My husband felt that Elder Dunn had great integrity and so believed on his words. When the fabrications came out, he said, “How do I know if JS didn’t fabricate his stories too. I will no longer rely on anyone else’s testimony and until I get my own, I will no longer go to church.” One of the things I have learned about the spirit though is that He works through people in different ways according to their personality type. For example, my husband is a research scientist with a PhD in nureo-anatomy. He is very articulate and rational and mechanically inclined. His strengths lie in the use of the intellect. But, he was having problems with his co-workers and all his reasoning power did not seem to work on them. So, he began praying about how to deal with this problem. That weekend we drove to Nauvoo, Illinois (we live in Davenport, IA -2 hour drive away) and spent the weekend there. There is a place in Nauvoo, called the “Alvin House’ and they have these large mechanical metal puzzles there. My husband found them fascinating and bought several of them. They did not interest me at all and I thought they were a waste of money as they were a bit expensive. But, this was his ‘toy’ of choice. One of the puzzles had a large metal heart shape in it that you were supposed to twist and turn to get off. Even after hours of working on it, my husband could not get that heart shaped metal piece off. So, he ended up staying up all night until he finally got it off. I thought it was so ridiculous to waste a whole night sleep over this stupid puzzle. Well, I had to learn a lesson from all this. That morning, my husband told me he got the answer to his prayer about his co-workers from doing that puzzle. He said, “Just like I had such difficulty using reason with my co-workers, I had such difficulty getting this heart shaped thing off. The Spirit taught me that I have to use the ‘heart’ or deal with people’s emotions and how they feel about themselves in order to deal with my co-workers.” So, he began making his co-workers feel good about themselves and their abilities rather than trying to prove how right he was about the projects they worked on and they began to like him and be able to work with him better. Point being–The spirit works through puzzles, emotions, and all sorts of ways to get through to our particular type of personality.
Is it possible that we live our daily lives without asking any real questions to ourselves. Then when we decide to actually get down on our knees and ask our deeper inner selves a question that we get this emotional response. When ever I have had a spiritual feeling I have been distraught desperate for an answer I have supplicated the lord ( or deep within myself) and then the feeling comes. Is it possible that it is like a part of our soul that wants to answer us, to respond to our needs that produces the answer. I like the theory that God is within us that just like our physical children have our DNA within them, we have gods spiritual D.N.A in us. Could it be this D.N.A that answers our prayers?? I would not argue against that at all. 1topen – I actually really like this idea also. It feels consistent as well with the idea that we are trying to live up to our potential to become gods. I really appreciate some of the descriptors for feeling the Spirit. I really liked quickening, such a cool way to describe it. I actually hear words in my mind. (Voices???) Hah! Now perhaps this compromises my credibility. I also have feelings usually during a conversation, during a talk, or when I meditate. Meditation I believe is essential. Sometimes I’m too busy shouting at God to hear the still small voice. Thinker wrote:Meditation I believe is essential. Sometimes I’m too busy shouting at God to hear the still small voice.
Loved that description. I do more meditating these days than formal prayer, but I still like to go through the ritual and symbolic nature of “speaking” to God (in mind or out loud). Most of the time though, I just seek a sense of love and oneness. I seek that bliss. The effort to make that connection clears up so many of my problems, mostly by just deciding to experience them differently or change ME inside.
Valoel wrote:I do more meditating these days than formal prayer, but I still like to go through the ritual and symbolic nature of “speaking” to God (in mind or out loud).
I think to give the spirit opportunities to speak to me, sometimes I find saying a prayer out loud does help. Perhaps that is faith to actually say the words I’m thinking, and by that faith, the spirit speaks.This is such a classic thread. I am going to use a lot of the ideas here in my lesson tomorrow. How do you really know that burning, or quickening, or inspirational thought is really the spirit. It could just as easy be your own thoughts telling you what you need to hear. I ask because I have had two major experiences in my life where I was absolutely sure the spirit was giving me direction. I believed and followed the direction. I got up in fast meting and told the ward of the great spiritual witness I had received. A week latter the exact opposite happened to what I had been told by the spirit. I am not saying the spirit does not communicate to individuals its just that I can never really depend on what I hear it say. It could just be me since I am a skeptic by nature. Here is an interesting clip from the movie Joan of Arc that makes you think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3LLY3jdAIo&feature=youtube_gdata I have come to understand that true inspiration is using the intelligence that God gave to you. Reason and intellectual thought can be just as effective as any spiritual witness. Thats not to say that reason always gives you the correct answer but neither does prayer. You just need to do your best and use the brain God gave you to understand your place in the scheme of things.
I agree generally, Cadence – except for those few times when I really have understood that which literally was impossible for me to understand and spoken words that truly were fore-knowing words. Those experiences haven’t happened often for me, but there truly is no rational way to explain them except to say that I was tapped into something that saw beyond what is available normally to mortals – and I choose to attribute that to God and “the Spirit” (whatever that means). I understand all the other options for explanations, and none of them work in the few experiences I’ve had that fit this category. I have NO idea why that is true for me and not for all – so I chalk it up to an individual gift and hope only that, in dealing with this particular issue, others can “believe on those who know” when reading the words of someone who really does KNOW in regard to this issue. I wish I knew more clearly and completely (and often), but I do know with regard to a handful of experiences in my life.
Old-Timer wrote:Those experiences haven’t happened often for me, but there truly is no rational way to explain them except to say that I was tapped into something that saw beyond what is available normally to mortals – and I choose to attribute that to God and “the Spirit” (whatever that means).
Cadence wrote:I have come to understand that true inspiration is using the intelligence that God gave to you. Reason and intellectual thought can be just as effective as any spiritual witness.
From my perspective, I see these as potentially complimentary and even self-evidentiary.
Especially, if you can attribute reason and intellectual thought to “God”. In the same way that Ray attributes his experiences to “God”. And, from a philosophical viewpoint, the “collective unconscious” as a manifestation/gift of “God”.
While it’s certainly unorthodox, I wouldn’t separate reason and intellectual thought from “spiritual witness”, “foresight”, and collective unconscious, but rather, as similar experiential processes which we now use semantics to separate (discriminate?).
There may be a place in the history of man when “spiritual promptings”, “foresight”, “coincidence”, “mutual inspiration”, “common sense”, and “rationality” were all called the same thing in the language of that place and time. Probably before the flood.
😳 😈 🙄 😆
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