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It’s another excuse to be sure but sometimes I think we fail to see the blessings. We might be looking for a $100 bill to miraculously appear to help us make a timely payment and miss out on some of the other not so obvious blessings that come from paying tithing. If the blessings are so subtle that they go completely unnoticed for an extended period of time one starts to question whether there are any blessing at all. We are creatures of habit and the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Life is an experiment, we’re free to change the variables.
Rob4Hope wrote:I learned something in a child psychology class a long time ago, and it was a sad thing–why do abused children continue to take responsibility for the actions of the abuser in their life? One of the reasons is the need for the relationship is so paramount, that the child will own the abuse themselves as a way to absolve the abuser and somehow hold onto the relationship. (now, if I am wrong in this, please correct me as I do NOT want to treat something like this lightly). But my point in bringing that up is when dealing with a black/white person, I see something very similar. They will excuse EVERYTHING away to try to maintain a semblance of faith and trust, in leaders as well as in God. It doesn’t make sense to me. But, I do see it happening.
DW has a friend that always makes the comment “tithing blessings” whenever something good happens (like our old car continues to run much longer than expected). We admire her positive outlook and see that it works for her. We do not have the heart to tell her that we haven’t paid tithing in years (and therefore this cannot be the reason the old car lives on).
Not to say that she has no hardship. She has a debilitating disease with no cure.
She finds beauty and meaning in her life to a fair degree by imagining the protecting, loving, blessing giving hand of God in her life. She definately focuses on the positives and discounts the negatives.
It just seems like a beautiful way to live and absolutely true to her life experiences (as she has ordered and framed them in her mind). I totally get that this does not work for everybody and when it breaks down it can break down something fierce, but I also will absolutely defend her right to pen and frame her own life story in the way that is most meaningful to her.
Rob4Hope wrote:…I don’t like being treated like this…not from inside the church, and more generally, not from God either. There are suppose to be blessings that come from obedience from the Gospel,..and many of those blessings are suppose to happen IN THIS LIFE. Paul said: “Prove all things, hold fast that which is good.” So, if someone obeys and the blessings don’t happen,…the proof seems to be in the pudding. I’m just saying….
I struggle with this type of doctrine, and I confess it has colored my ability to trust. At a fundamental level, like my quote about Uncle Hub,…I have a choice what to believe. I don’t like a God who is omnipotent, but chooses as a matter of policy as it were, to give commands with no explanation–just do it because I said so…and then there be examples over and over (and I know of many) where promised blessings are not forthcoming from obedience, and no explanation of why or why not.
Sorry. Doesn’t resonate.
Ah yes. You highlight an understanding of God that I sometimes forget is alive and well. It doesn’t resonate with me either. I don’t see God as a button pusher or a wish granter. I don’t look for blessings as a reason to keep commandments. I see life as a place to experience the range from joys to sorrows, I think it is basically random, and serves its purpose very well in that mode. Our job here is to gain experience and wisdom, and I think we are accomplishing our purpose when we see through the image of God as a button pusher, and recognize the love that God presents and represents in the midst of harsh trials. This is our opportunity to gain wisdom, and learn how to love.
On a side note I take the “blessings are predicated on the law associated with them” concept very seriously. For example economic blessing come through obeying economic laws. Tithing is not the only economic law. Billionaires understand and obey economic laws and they reap the blessings of that obedience, no button pushing needed.
But,…on occasion, there are “hard doctrines” as Neal Maxwell points out, and there appears to often be a randomness associated with those doctrines. The person who obeys the laws (economic, physical, or spiritual–whatever) and there are no blessings. They struggle, and obedience to the laws make no difference either way. It is THAT circumstance that challenges faith,…because the whole “reaping the fruit of what you sow” idea (which we subscribe to do we not as LDS people?…keep commandments and be saved and all that?) is predicated on the ethereal “next life”.
I have often marveled that real faith is the kind you have to have when you are told “NO!…you don’t get that blessing, even if you keep the commandments…” but are still expected, nay…required!…to be obedient.
I think that in a large measure (and this is only one example among many), our LGBT brothers and sisters are put in this situation. Be obedient to the LAC, and in the next life,…if you are really good…well, that is where the blessings are. What a FAITH CHALLENGE!!!!
Rob4Hope wrote:
I want to know what others are doing to move forward……Can you all share?
R4H, it’s really difficult to talk about how I move forward. It’s multifaceted. My response to some issues is different from my response to other issues, and my response to most issues has changed over time.Having said that, I will say that as a general rule I do find it helpful not to worry about what God is like, how involved he is, what he has promised, what he eats for snacks, what he thinks of me, or what his motivations are. I worry about me and about what I can control. Here’s one thought:
When you say “I believe in…” try not to use a noun (God, angels who make sure I don’t step in mud puddles, the Church, prayer, heaven, the HG, tithing, etc). Try to use verbs (doing good, helping others, trying to be a better person, following the teachings of the NT). You can even turn some of the nouns to verbs. Believing in paying tithing is much different from believing in tithing. In the former, you acknowledge that the act of giving is good and probably that it has a positive influence on you. In the latter, you believe that God will open the windows of heaven as promised. Believing in following Jesus is much different from believing in Jesus.
Roy wrote:Rob4Hope wrote:I just read something recently from Elder Oaks. He said that there is no general precedence for God giving reasons for His commands. He just gives the command, and if we obey…well, there is suppose to be some blessing, but if not, we get punished in some way.
I believe you are referring to the following:
Quote:In a 1988 interview Elder Oaks was asked about the priesthood restriction and how the sudden reversal seems to confuse some members.
Elder Oaks said, “If you read the scriptures with this question in mind, “Why did the Lord Command this or why did the Lord command that?” you find that in less than one in a hundred commands was any reason given. It’s not the pattern of the Lord to give reasons. We can put reason to revelation. We can put reasons to commandments. When we do we are on our own. Some people put reasons to the one we’re talking about here, and they turned out to be spectacularly wrong. There is a lesson in that. The lesson I’ve drawn is that I decided a long time ago that I had faith in the command and I had no faith in the reasons that had been suggested for it.”
When asked if the reasons he was talking about include reasons given by GA’s, Elder Oaks responded in part, “The reasons turn out to be man-made to a great extent.”
Now this was in 1988 so we can cut Elder Oaks a degree of slack since it was so long ago. But I do believe it is instructive that the church has since condemned the priesthood ban as not from God. If I were to apply Elder Oaks’ reasoning from 1988 I would have followed a policy that did not make any logical sense believeing that God had commanded it so – when down the road it was discovered that God didn’t command it after all.
Yep. My use of the word “recently” was in reference to how recent I had read it,…not when it was published.
On Own Now wrote:When you say “I believe in…” try not to use a noun (God, angels who make sure I don’t step in mud puddles, the Church, prayer, heaven, the HG, tithing, etc). Try to use verbs (doing good, helping others, trying to be a better person, following the teachings of the NT). You can even turn some of the nouns to verbs. Believing in paying tithing is much different from believing in tithing. In the former, you acknowledge that the act of giving is good and probably that it has a positive influence on you. In the latter, you believe that God will open the windows of heaven as promised. Believing in following Jesus is much different from believing in Jesus.
I can see the shift, and it makes sense… It is interesting OON what you suggest is something often spoken about as being problematic for others, however. For example, to believe in following Jesus is one thing,..but as you point out, “believing in Jesus” is something else.
I am reminded of the book Believing Christ…and OON, you have pointed out what appears to be another slight variation that adds even a different perspective.
From BC, many have these two ideas in mind…
1. Believe in Christ (as in he is the son of God and so forth).
2. Believe Christ (which Robinson says is a “soft” area that many struggle with,..hence the book)
3. Believe in Following Christ (which you brought out OON).
Just interesting…
My own answer to the title question: Slowly, carefully and with as much charity as possible.
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