How do you keep it all to yourself?

[Anonymous]

So my journey started years ago. I finally came to a place where I can love the church for its goodness and wisdom, but I don’t believe all that it teaches. This has been hard for me, as I’m sure many of you have experienced, my family and marriage are built on the principles of the church. I have a temple marriage and we are good church goers. Just recently I opened up to my husband. I know he knew it was coming as we have had many discussions over the last several years, and he was … quiet. He asked me to keep reading the scriptures and to pray daily, which I agreed to do, but he has withdrawn from me. We don’t talk about it, things are just different…platonic.

We were asked to speak in church the other day and the topics are … laughable for my situation. “Building your testimony of the church.” And the references are from the last two conferences specifically addressing “doubters” or those who are looking for answers outside of the church. I know this assignment is not aimed at me, no one knows my situation, but I believe it is aimed at some friends of our who have openly shared their doubts with the bishopric. I tried to talk to my husband about how I will frame my talk but he simply could not talk to me about it.

I’m not looking for advise on how to “fix my husband,” or that I should “understand where he is coming from.” I love him and I’m okay with him dealing with this however he needs to, and if that means I carry-on like the good Mormon wife that he married than I will do it. I need advise on how to walk this path alone. I can’t share with friends or family, I can’t talk to my bishop. I feel really, really alone.

Thanks for listening (or reading). I don’t comment often on these boards, but I read. I find strength in the thoughts that are shared here.

[Anonymous]

Hi Charity…my heart goes out to you as I used to be in your husbands position. Just pray that God will show him the light as He did me. My husband had been praying and fasting for many years to get the witness of Moroni’s promise of the Book of Mormon. When it didn’t come, he left the church and I found myself crying my eyes out in a fast and testimony meeting one Sunday. I was begging the Lord to tell me why he had not given a good man like my husband a spiritual witness,

Something very unexpectedly happened then. A clear thought came through my head that said, “Why don’t you go visit that 7th Day Adventist church around the corner?” I thought, “Where did that come from?” and then the thought came to me two more times. I told my husband about it and we decided to follow that prompting. I met with the pastor of that church several times and the things he gave me to read answered some important questions I had. You see I had been doing all the right things in the church, (paying tithing, going to the temple, etc. etc) but none of the blessings seemed to be coming. In fact everything had gotten worse. My kids were in trouble and my husband did not get his raise, the car and washer broke down, and now he left the church. Where we all the blasted blessings they kept preaching about from the pulpit. Then I came across some anti-Mormon stuff from the Tanners that quoted out of church history and Journal of Discourses. For the first time I thought that the church might be false.

This 7th day adventist pastor handed me a little book called “The 5 Day Plan to Know God.” As I was reading, it talked about how the Jews were waiting for their Messiah to come save them from all their trials. When he came and told them he came to save them from their sins not their problems they were ticked off. A light bulb went off in me and I realized I was like those early Jews waiting for God to save me from all my problems. Suddenly I realized I had been living the gospel for the wrong reasons. That was a paradigm change for me and from then on I became focused on overcoming my sins and looking to Christ for support and answers. Not a church.

[Anonymous]

I have been in your situation, Charity, with reversed roles of husband and wife – I was the doubter and my wife didn’t deal with it well. I take some responsibility, I also didn’t present it well. Nevertheless, it is a very difficult position to be in, and one I endured for years. A big difference in our situations was that I stopped going to church – I recommend avoiding that if you can. I’m not sure things would have been much different if we knew then what we know now, and there was definitely some intervention from a very loving and in-tune leader.

Perhaps this talk is a way for you to reach your husband. I would most assuredly use Uchtdorf’s talk from last October (I do, in fact, use it all the time). I’d also use the BYU magazine article about questioning children from the from the spring edition (which I have also used in talks).

Your question is in part how do you keep it together, and that’s the toughest part. What works for me might not work for you and vice versa. I sometimes tune out, as has been discussed in other threads. If the opportunity presents itself, I gently share another point of view. The opportunity did present itself yesterday, but surprisingly someone beat me to it – it was a brief discussion about what constitutes apostasy but someone else very clearly made the point that questioning is not apostasy, and he even managed to fit in that we don’t necessarily have to believe everything or agree with the prophet, but we also can’t teach things in opposition to the church or prophet. I skip Sunday School and talk with people in the foyer – they’re not in there for some reason, too. And I participate here – quite frankly, even with the loving leader, I’m not sure I would have returned to church if not for the support I get here.

By the way, my wife has also of late come to some new understandings – she has finally realized that my questions were not so uncommon after all, and that God still loves us despite our imperfections (even if that imperfection is doubting).

[Anonymous]

Hi Charity,

For one, keep on coming here to read and post – this is a wonderful supportive community working hard to accomplish the purpose of staying LDS. Unfortunately, at this point, much of the support for me comes from the online community, but that’s not a bad thing. It is just the way it is. So many in the Church have been taught that you must “know” the church is true, though I think (I hope) this is changing. At present, it means for me and others here that doubts have to be held close to the vest.

I am in the High Priest Group leadership now, so I must attend those lessons every Sunday. I really try to focus on Christ and what he would do, so now when I share things, it focuses more around what He would do and not what the institutional church expects of us. It’s a gentle way of sharing with others and virtually nobody can argue against a teaching of Jesus. I just try not to let some of the hard core teachings get to me and in Sunday School, there have been times I am just quietly reading something else on my tablet.

Although it can kind of project a bit of an “us” versus “them” mentality, I love the iron rod and liahona analogy given by Richard Poll (http://www.zionsbest.com/people.html ). I sounds like your bishop is looking at you and your husband to be the rescuers of the doubters. But I think your talk is a wonderful opportunity to teach those “normal members” in the congregation that you cannot necessarily “fix” the doubters. Be loving and supportive and accept them as participants in the Church. We all have different levels of “testimony”.

[Anonymous]

Charity wrote:

We were asked to speak in church the other day and the topics are … laughable for my situation. “Building your testimony of the church.” And the references are from the last two conferences specifically addressing “doubters” or those who are looking for answers outside of the church. I know this assignment is not aimed at me, no one knows my situation, but I believe it is aimed at some friends of our who have openly shared their doubts with the bishopric. I tried to talk to my husband about how I will frame my talk but he simply could not talk to me about it.

The revelations that both founded and enriched the church were born out of doubt. What if Joseph Smith didn’t look for answers outside of the churches of his day? What if Orville and Wilbur Wright stuck to bicycles because they believed that man would never fly?

If we create a culture that silences doubt we create a culture that loses all access to revelation.

Sometimes we have to look outside of the church for answers. Where did answers come from before there was a church? Are those sources no longer useful now that we have a church?

I look to articles of faith #9 and #13 for hope:

Quote:

We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

If we are satisfied with what we have what will serve as the catalyst for receiving future revelations? IMO doubts will drive those future revelations.

Quote:

We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

It does not say: If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy in the church, we seek after these things. God gave us a world to experience and 7 billion people to learn from. It would be a shame to limit ourselves to only listening to 15 people or even just 15 million.

Doubts help us exercise agency. Doubts can inspire us to reach new heights or they can instil fear and prevent us from moving forward. Revelations await, therefore I will continue to doubt. Mine is the responsibility to make sure that doubts work towards my gain, that doubts lead me towards becoming one in Christ.

[Anonymous]

NewLight wrote:

I really try to focus on Christ and what he would do, so now when I share things, it focuses more around what He would do and not what the institutional church expects of us. It’s a gentle way of sharing with others and virtually nobody can argue against a teaching of Jesus. I just try not to let some of the hard core teachings get to me and in Sunday School, there have been times I am just quietly reading something else on my tablet.

I think this is very helpful. To focus on what you do believe, and focus on behaving in a loving Christ-like way.

My sister is married to a non-member. He is so loving and nice, goes to church with her and is supportive. He doesn’t believe any of it, but he is supportive and focuses on the things he can agree with.

I don’t know how many times you and your husband talked about issues like Polygamy or church history in the past in your marriage. If not much, perhaps that is the same model you keep following. Perhaps compartmentalize it like you do other things in a relationship…such as if he is a big BYU football fan, and you just don’t care for football at all, but you can get along even with differences, preferences, different views or likes and dislikes.

The hard part is if you really long for him to want to listen and validate your feelings. And you may not be able to do that. That makes it hard. But it doesn’t need to overshadow other parts of a marriage.

I have tried to increase my love and compassion and understanding towards others. I never wanted to appear angry and bitter and give people ammunition to say that I changed and became darkened and lost…because the issue isn’t me…its me learning of things as they really are and struggling to process it. I’ve had brothers and friends see that I’m a good person, and they’re not worried about me. I think that helps in any relationship…build up enough capital and trust they aren’t freaked out by doubts and questions, so they will not misplace what they are seeing.

[Anonymous]

Charity wrote:

I’m not looking for advise on how to “fix my husband,” or that I should “understand where he is coming from.” I love him and I’m okay with him dealing with this however he needs to, and if that means I carry-on like the good Mormon wife that he married than I will do it. I need advise on how to walk this path alone. I can’t share with friends or family, I can’t talk to my bishop. I feel really, really alone.

Charity, I’m sorry and think I know how you’re feeling. I sought out some people who I knew were kind of on the fringe and developed let’s-check-in-with-each-other-once-a-month friendships with a couple of them. I stopped feeling so panicked and afraid. I’m also getting more comfortable with just casually letting things drop with my mainstream friends. For me it’s been important to do all of this while still participating. I understand that doesn’t work for everyone. Family prayer, scriptures, meetings, callings, meal prayers, Sabbath-keeping – they don’t just help me avoid detection and contention, they help me understand myself and keep my conscience relatively clear.

(Not that we have wonderful family prayers. As a general rule, we don’t. But it’s what we do and we aren’t ourselves without it. Just an example.)

Good luck, and I think this site will really help you.

[Anonymous]

Charity, I don’t frequent this site anymore, but I do read occasionally, and I have to come out of the shadows to respond to your post.

You have already received some great advice from some great people on this site. I want to add to them a few thoughts.

Many of us have been through what you are going through. I remember the loneliness, but it is gone now; replaced with peace. I remember my wife not being sure what to make of it, but we love each other more now than ever. I remember wanting so badly to keep it a secret, but now, I embrace it as part of myself, and I tell people if I want.

Charity wrote:

if that means I carry-on like the good Mormon wife that he married than I will do it.

That likely seems like a good choice right now. I understand and I have been there. But in the long run, that will probably only cause other problems. I know for me, I started to feel like a hypocrite. I felt that I wasn’t being true to what I believed, and most importantly, I wasn’t being me. IMO, it is not good to try to check someone else’s box. Instead, I suggest zeroing in on what you still believe, or what you newly believe. What you may find… well, speaking for myself, what I have found over this long haul, is that the characteristics of Good are the same now as they were when I was a believer. The things I believe have changed, but only in a superficial way. I am still grateful for my upbringing in the Church, for the mission I served, for the education (and experiences) at BYU, for the service, commitment, caring, optimism, work ethic and self-efficacy that I learned in the Church. Find yourself, and then reassure him that you are still the good wife he married and that you love him and want more than anything else to make it work.

It is your responsibility to give him the reason to be OK with it. I have always made it a part of my makeup to remember that I am the one who changed, not my wife, so I carry the burden of patience, sacrifice, acceptance, and accommodation. It has worked very well. She is still active, still attends the temple, still believes. We have a wonderful marriage. But it wasn’t always so. My wife suffered a lot because of my faith crisis. I haven’t written about or thought about it for a long time, but the tears she shed were… well… I can’t find the words. For awhile she didn’t know what the future would hold. Of course she didn’t. There was no framework for it. Honestly, I didn’t know where I was going either. So, I made some decisions early, and have lived by them. I made a commitment to myself and to her that I was going to support her and the kids in the Church, that I wasn’t going to become anti-Mormon, that I wasn’t going to start drinking. (Lest cwald see this post and find offence, I simply state that there is nothing wrong with drinking and I would like to do it, except that it would be painful for my wife, so I have stayed away). I also determined for myself that I wasn’t going to get into doctrinal discussions. My faith is mine. Hers is hers. It’s not for me to convince her. Once it was firmly established that I wasn’t changing me, and that I still loved her as she was, then the uneasiness began to abate. Today, many years later, we are best friends. We share all our hopes and fears. Nobody on earth is more in love than we are.

Charity wrote:

I can’t share with friends or family, I can’t talk to my bishop.

You will be able to someday. My opinion: the sooner the better… it depends on individual circumstances. But what you share is what is important. If I told a friend that I believe JS was not a prophet, it would put them on the defensive and frame conversation as a debate. Instead, I tell people, “I am no longer a believer”. There is really no room for debate. I no longer believe. That is a fact. The only person who could refute that is me. What I have found in response is nothing but love and kindness at every turn.

Charity wrote:

I feel really, really alone.

This statement is why I felt I needed to comment. I have felt alone, too. It’s not a good feeling. But you aren’t alone… we are not alone. There is this wonderful community. You can come here and share, converse, help and be helped. The Admins here do a great job of keeping this site focused on helping each other as we struggle to stay connected to the Church. StayLDS was a godsend for me, and I know it has been for many others as well. But closer to home, there are people around you with many similar upheavals in faith. When I look around the EQ, I get the feeling that there are about a quarter of them who would self-identify as having similar feelings to mine. And most importantly, you have your husband. Tell him you love him… that you need him. Explain that you are still the good wife he married and that you want to do good and be good, and that you want to be together more than anything else. If you are able, express a desire to support him in the Church. If he asks ‘why’ you don’t believe anymore explain that it isn’t about ‘why’ but about ‘us’. And remember to be as loving to him as you hope he is to you.

I wish you the best in your paths ahead.

[Anonymous]

I wanted to post a thank you to you all. I have read and reread your comments several times over the last weeks, and cried each and every time. I appreciate knowing there are others who have been down this road and made it, and it is a comfort to know that it will get better. I have taken much of your advise and although still a rocky road I feel progress is being made. I my faith crisis started several years ago but as long as I was “faking it” I managed to smile and hold it together. Letting my husband in on my little secret caused a whole new kind of panic and guilt as he feels I have just kissed our eternal marriage good-bye. He too is processing and to his credit has really made an attempt to not judge or argue with me.

My next step it to try to figure out how to be authentic with my kids and family without my husband feeling like I’m “leading them astray.”

Once again, I wanted to thank you all. I have often found myself in tears, consumed in fear and loneliness and turned to you to remind myself I can do it.

[Anonymous]

I have to steer clear of these topics with my wife. My attitudes upset her. And yes, the theology makes it so the spouses feel disillusioned when their spouse appears to have doubts and endangers their salvation. The church can be a huge wedge between husband and wife. One of my friends, who resigned recently, even commented that the church can be anti-family given the theology when one spouse becomes disaffected….

I talk here mostly. I have slowly tested waters with a couple friends but it never goes well. They are too black and white. They may feign compassion, but deep down,they think I am apostate and find ways of chastising me. One asked for permission to use my story as an example of how letting interpersonal problems lead us to apostasy….in spite of the fact that I’m still active, and support my family….It’s a lonely experience. He told me I was apostate a while ago, and this week, that he thinks I’m an anti-Mormon.

With my kids, I disagree openly on cultural issues. I inoculate them against negative church cultural values many people can’t see and simply take for granted as truth. Therefore, my daughter regularly comments on judgmentalism when she sees it, and even asks “Am I being judgmental when I say…[insert something here]”. She is OK with being a working mother if she wants it. At the same time, she is TBM. But I can’t and won’t inject unorthodoxy into her bedrock belief system. She may also emerge with a more kindly attitude toward people who have Same Sex Attraction than I used to be years ago due to my influence.

I am finding it increasingly difficult to sit on my hands and not speak openly, locally, however. I’ve had urges to write letters to local leaders who I have seen, over and over again, think of the members as if they are employees, are discompassionate, neglectful, and critical of them when they don’t perform to expectations, in spite of their being volunteers. I did open up to one local leader who was a close friend and it was a mistake. He patronized me, but I know that deep down he disapproves of me….there are periods of listening and apparent compassion, but then punctuated chastisement at key points.

In my view, it never goes well being open about church concerns — the beliefs of TBM’s are too black and white and ingrained. If they are in a position of local power, they have the ability to block you from callings and opportunities and temple recommends you may want at some point. It is best to fly under the radar and serve in ways that don’t require you to be inauthentic or confront your doubts openly. Be in the ward, but not so involved you are miserable.

And, as I’m prone to do, I want to describe how I have placed my sights on community service. In the last couple years I’ve been very heavily involved in various leadership capacities in the community. It was very fulfilling. I won awards, discovered talents I didn’t know I had, gained confidence in my leadership ability outside of church contexts, and built my professional resume. Church people see little or no eternal value in this kind of service, but I don’t care. They also do not see it as a valid alternative to church service. I have redefined one purpose of my life as providing “service to humanity” rather than service in the church. A change is a good as a rest, one needs to also think of one’s career, and it doesn’t have to be about the church all the time either. And one can pursue service to humanity in a variety of contexts — not just for the church.

I hope this helps. It’s heartbreaking, I know, but you get over it. It’s never a smooth ride — there are times when the influence of the church and your doubts rear its head in one’s marriage, personal life, and church relationships. But remember, even when I was a TBM, the church’s “ugly head” would rear itself at different times as well, creating heartbreak, requiring mental discipline and overcoming.

[Anonymous]

I have not been burned by leaders, but I have only really opened up to one bishop and I would say only about 50% with him. I could probably go more than that with him, but I figured why? I don’t think he was going to help and I might just find that 75% is fine, but 80% might tip his mind and put me in the “can’t be trusted” bucket. But that was my previous bishop. My current bishop knows I have some concerns, but I don’t go into it with him.

I would emphasize with my spouse that I am trying, that we all have imperfections and this is one that I have.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

I have slowly tested waters with a couple friends but it never goes well. They are too black and white. They may feign compassion, but deep down,they think I am apostate and find ways of chastising me. One asked for permission to use my story as an example of how letting interpersonal problems lead us to apostasy….in spite of the fact that I’m still active, and support my family….It’s a lonely experience. He told me I was apostate a while ago, and this week, that he thinks I’m an anti-Mormon.

I hear you there. I hate the way that some people throw around the word “apostate.” People on my mission used to call other missionaries ‘apostate’ when they weren’t following all the mission rules: like getting home after 9:00, spending multiple hours with one family after dinner, not wearing their bike helmet, and things like that. Sure, they were breaking the rules, but they weren’t ‘apostate.’ The dictionary defines ‘apostate’ as forsaking your religion. When I first started talking with my wife about my doubts, she wouldn’t talk to me for three days. It eventually got so bad that we separated over it for a few months, because she needed to decide whether or not she wanted to stay with an ‘apostate.’ I agree with the comments that have been made regarding the way the church doctrine puts a wedge in a marriage when one spouse has doubts. It causes the other spouse to worry about the status of their eternal situation. With that kind of indoctrination, I can understand why our spouses have a hard time with our doubts and issues.

The only solution I’ve found is to answer my wife’s questions honestly, but only when she asks. I don’t come out and tell her about everything that’s in my head. But, I also make sure I let her know how I feel about the things I DO believe. Most of my gospel-related conversations with my wife now revolve around Jesus Christ as our Savior. I do believe that Jesus Christ suffered for our sins, so that we would all have the opportunity to live with our Heavenly Father again. And I worship God the Father, and believe that Jesus Christ was sent to the Earth to bring us the gospel. Bringing everything back to those basics has helped my wife and me. And I don’t feel like I’m an apostate, because I haven’t forsaken the gospel, just Joseph Smith and his additional doctrines. I’m sure others would disagree, though.

[Anonymous]

Charity, HC and others who haven’t read it, since it was written back in 2009, you might be interested in this old post:

“My Marriage as a Metaphor for My Church” (http://www.staylds.com/staylds/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=238&p=2107&hilit=sand#p2107)

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I agree with the comments that have been made regarding the way the church doctrine puts a wedge in a marriage when one spouse has doubts. It causes the other spouse to worry about the status of their eternal situation.

I was the TBM spouse, I so know the place they are coming from. It’s frightening beyond words, death or fatal illness is almost more bearable. Mormons are trained for death and illness – not for change of beliefs or convictions.

We didn’t separate but it was a cold war at home, and tremendous grief in private, eventually we found a counselor to help us.

However from the get-go I refused to be the wife that cried in the hall. People could whisper or guess all they wanted, but they wouldn’t have any leverage from me. Fast forward nearly a decade and my goal has grown – I will be the spouse that attends in the face of all the “apostate” garbage we fling. My husband even asks me on some Sundays, especially my personal hard ones, “Why do you go?” My answer is – for him.

Not for his salvation or some mythical idea that he will return to activity and we could reclaim some elusive Celestial promise, but because as a people – a people dedicated to a Utopian idea called Zion – we need to “Tear Down These Walls” we keep building. So darn it, Salt Lake isn’t going to get the job done, so it will have to be me. I’m in for the win on families. It’s big Mama Bear stuff.

[Anonymous]

For your talk, check out this quote found at the BYU web site. It is a quote from Orson F. Whitney delivered at a YMMIA Conference in 1888

Quote:

But it is not my present purpose to pursue the subject to which this train of thought would naturally lead. It suffices me to know, and to testify, that this people are the friends, not the foes, of education; that they are seekers after wisdom, lovers of light and truth, universal Truth, which, like the waters of earth, or the sunbeams of heaven, has but one Source, let its earthly origin be what it may.

“Truth is truth, wher’er ’tis found,

On Christian or on heathen ground,”

and worthy of our love and admiration, whether far or near, high or low, whether blazing as a star in the blue vault of heaven, or springing like a floweret from the soil.

[Author]

Posts