How do you reconcile Joseph Smith?

[Anonymous]

mom3 wrote:

Reuben I actually agree with your point and even Bridget’s. I well remember hearing Elder Anderson make that lovely comment and seething for days. Over and over I imagined getting a chance to talk to Elder Anderson and telling him to cut everyone else some slack. Suffice it to say Elder Anderson and I are on very bad terms. I was thrilled when I learned I had to be out of town when he came to our recent Stake Conference.

The OP was how do I reconcile Joseph Smith. I wrote I cut him out. I really do. I can even recount the history and it barely effects me anymore. Do I wish a million things were done differently both from Joseph and the church. Yes. Tons of things. I will never get any of them. I am a Christian, by my own definition. I choose to refresh or grow my Christianity through the Mormon Faith. That’s all. Joseph is now just some guy who helped it get started.

As to standards of excommunication the whole thing gets messy. We should remember that the church emerit-ized Paul H. Dunn for far less than Joseph ever did. I am not excusing Elder Dunn’s fabrication choices but even in the upper levels of the church we cut no one much slack anymore.

In this vein, let us not forget George P. Lee. Armand Mauss described him as “one of the truly tragic figures in modern Mormon history.”

[Anonymous]

What is a prophet?

I believe that most Christian religions start with God and his purpose for the creation. That purpose is either furthered or frustrated by the fall of man (depending on who you ask) but all will work out in the end and the faithful will live happily ever after. In this version there is a True God and a true purpose and that God and purpose must be discovered and believed in order to achieve your potential in this life. The role of the true prophet in this scenario is to act as a representative from God to man to communicate his will and purpose to the fallen, wayward people (that are essentially hopelessly lost otherwise). These prophets are holy men that prophesy and perform miracles as evidence that God is with them.

Part of my own shock with JS was when I read RSR and discovered that JS did not perform miracles and did not seem to know the future. That may sound like a silly realization but I had grown up on stories that suggested that he did these sorts of things. Any moral failings that JS might have had would have been secondary for me. If JS could do these supernatural things then that would be evidence that God was behind him and that God stood behind the restoration. That would mean that I could depend on the priesthood that came through JS to bless, seal, and ultimately save my family in the kingdom of heaven. How many relationships/marriages JS had and whether or not they were sexual in nature was a distant second for me.

I now am believing that man found himself on this planet and the purpose of life was somewhat ambiguous. Man yearned for explanation and meaning and developed many explanations and mythological stories that helped to provide this meaning and purpose. The meaning can vary from religion to religion. A prophet in this scenario is a charismatic change maker, a visionary or mystic, a religious innovator that pushes past the status quo and adds something to the search for explanation and meaning. Jesus was a prophet, so was Mohammad, so was Joseph Smith. Martin Luther, Ann Lee, and Ellen G. White were prophets according to this new definition of mine. (I do not know much about eastern religions but am sure that they have prophets too.) Maybe God is working through them or maybe they are reaching up with their own hands and their own abilities to create ideas that have a hint of divinity in their own right. I see them as something akin to artists. They paint, craft, and mold out of belief and meaning rather than canvass, wood, or clay. Their body of work contributes and adds to the beauty and wonder of the human experience.

That is how I reconcile JS.

ConfusedMolly wrote:

So, how can I stay LDS when I’m questioning if…. [JS] was even a prophet

1) I have given you a broad outline of my faith reconstruction. Yours can be completely different. I recommend building a faith structure that works for you. That will probably involve picking up ideas and concepts from different sources that you find useful. There is much in Mormonism that I find beautiful, inspiring, and yes – useful.

2) No matter what your faith structure, you will probably chafe against people that seem to think that because JS said it – it is therefore super important for our salvation. There are coping strategies. Shouting at them is not one of them.

[Anonymous]

mom3 wrote:

As to standards of excommunication the whole thing gets messy. We should remember that the church emerit-ized Paul H. Dunn for far less than Joseph ever did. I am not excusing Elder Dunn’s fabrication choices but even in the upper levels of the church we cut no one much slack anymore.

I think back is JS’s time, all in the upper-levels EXCEPT for the prophet could be excommunicated for just about anything. Eight of his first twelve apostles were given the boot. The only general leadership in the Church back then which wasn’t affected by excommunication, were those run by women (RS general presidency, primary presidency, Mutual Improvement Association leaders…). Being the prophet or being a woman. :think:

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

In this vein, let us not forget George P. Lee. Armand Mauss described him as “one of the truly tragic figures in modern Mormon history.”

Yes, he certainly is. I think he could have done so much for Native Americans in the church, however I see a Stockholm Syndrome in him. I’m not sure the Indian Placement Program was entirely good.

[Anonymous]

SamBee wrote:

DarkJedi wrote:

In this vein, let us not forget George P. Lee. Armand Mauss described him as “one of the truly tragic figures in modern Mormon history.”

Yes, he certainly is. I think he could have done so much for Native Americans in the church, however I see a Stockholm Syndrome in him. I’m not sure the Indian Placement Program was entirely good.

I agree that although he thought the placement program was good and was good fro him, I think most people today see it negatively. It seems the real conflict was with the change in leadership from SWK to ETB and that Lee disagreed with Benson’s policies (specifically Native American policies, but there were apparently other things as well). That said, similarly expressing disagreement with the church policy issues of today would likely also get a person in Lee’s position excommunicated.

[Anonymous]

Confused Molly, I don’t if my view will make any difference but here goes:

I used to believe it all. Then about 7 years ago stuff started crumbling.

The more I have investigated about JS the more I am convinced that he was a man that might have had a connection with the divine (wether that happened or not in real life, I don’t know, but I believe he believed it).

I believe he was a man with a very vivid imagination. He was brought up in a family of religious people who had visions etc. mix that with folk magic of the day and a good dose of being charismatic, and you have Joseph. He seemed to be a sponge to religious ideas and somehow wove that into his own religion. He took ideas from everyone and everywhere (freemasons, and the King James Bible etc) and turned it into his own religion.

I don’t think he was a “bad” person. But he definitely did very bad things toward the end of his life (polygamy and other things).

I think he imagined things and at the same time saw signs everywhere (Zelph etc). We still have those religious people today. Those who see ufos, spiritual beings, whatever – today. I believe he was one of those types of people. And as he gained followers he had delusions of grandeur (wouldn’t we all).

I don’t believe tbom tboa and other books are factually true in any sense. They contain spiritual and universal truths.

I go to church (it’s my tribe and all that) but I am a non literal believer of that makes sense.

It took me a while to get to where I am. But here I am.

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[Anonymous]

Bear wrote:

It took me a while to get to where I am. But here I am.

:thumbup:

Thanks, Bear. That was a great post. Very inspiring.

[Anonymous]

Thanks:)

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[Anonymous]

Thanks for the insight, Bear!

Quote:

I go to church (it’s my tribe and all that) but I am a non literal believer of that makes sense.

I’m trying to figure out if there’s a place for someone like me within the church. If I decide that Joseph Smith was a prophet in the way that Roy so beautifully described,

Quote:

I see them as something akin to artists. They paint, craft, and mold out of belief and meaning rather than canvass, wood, or clay. Their body of work contributes and adds to the beauty and wonder of the human experience.

then, I think I have to reel back on my commitment/involvement in the church. Maybe that will be my answer.

I wish the church would make you feel a little more safe to be less-active. It’s such a negative word and there’s such a huge culture of “all or nothing” within the church. You can’t be a “fence sitter.” Or there’s always talk of separating the wheat from the tares (my own mom used that analogy on me… 🙄 )

[Anonymous]

You can’t be a fence sitter on choosing love or hate. So there is some truth to avoid fence sitting.

You can be a fence sitter on whether the New England Patriots are the best team or not, because it really doesn’t matter.

When people throw out “Wheat and tares” or fence sitting…just frame it in things that matter and you can agree with them. Frame it with gospel principles not church rhetoric.

You can choose to love God and your fellowmen, regardless if Joseph Smith was a prophet of just some random dude doing his best at what all of us are doing…trying to find meaning.

We ca let go of what others think is important and find for ourselves what moves our soul towards true peace.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

You can be a fence sitter on whether the New England Patriots are the best team or not

False Doctrine. The Patriots are the best team!!! Period. End of Story. And Tom Brady’s the best QB ever too!

Pick another analogy! 😈

(Yankees are the worst team ever, by the way. Just sayin’. And I hate Eli Manning too. Tom should have 7 rings!)

[Anonymous]

gospeltangents wrote:

Quote:

You can be a fence sitter on whether the New England Patriots are the best team or not

False Doctrine. The Patriots are the best team!!! Period. End of Story. And Tom Brady’s the best QB ever too!

Pick another analogy! 😈

(Yankees are the worst team ever, by the way. Just sayin’. And I hate Eli Manning too. Tom should have 7 rings!)

Tom Brady is the best of all time.

LeBron James is better than Michael Jordan.

Yankees are the single best sports franchise of all time…even with that walk-off walk last night.

Joseph Smith was the most controversial prophet that ever lived.

Biostatistics is a fascinating field of study.

All of those are true.

But if you want to sit the fence on those…you can (but they are still true) :angel:

[Anonymous]

ConfusedMolly wrote:

I think I have to reel back on my commitment/involvement in the church. Maybe that will be my answer.

I wish the church would make you feel a little more safe to be less-active. It’s such a negative word and there’s such a huge culture of “all or nothing” within the church. You can’t be a “fence sitter.” Or there’s always talk of separating the wheat from the tares (my own mom used that analogy on me… )

For me an important part about StayingLDS is about sustainability. How much can I put into the LDS church for the foreseeable future and not burn out? I feel that I have found that happy medium. I am sure that people at church would consider me less active. “Whatev.” I have also been able to branch out socially in several worthwhile directions. The ward membership is somewhere in the range of 5-15% of my social interaction. This is another reason that my sense of self worth and well being can be relatively independent from the church.

Fence sitting on Gun control.

What’s your position on gun control? Should any US citizen be able to buy and possess whatever weapon they can afford (as an inalienable right) or Should the Government confiscate all firearms as weapons only suitable for our military or police? These of course are extreme positions. There is some truth in the positions of each of these extremes. However, I believe that more truth is found somewhere in the middle ground. This is where the truth from both positions can be recognized, evaluated, and counterbalanced. The middle ground is where we can have productive discussions about background checks and limitations for felons and individuals with a history of domestic violence etc. etc. I personally wish that our elected officials could get in a room with each other and have more of these types of productive, policy making, discussions.

I also think it is important not to get myopic about the issue. However I feel about gun control – there is so much more to life than arguing about guns all the time. I do not have to go to rallies every weekend. I can take my family to a picnic in the park instead. In this too there is wisdom and balance.

The middle path is not easy. It is much easier and natural to pick a side and demonize the other. Walking in the middle you can take heat from both sides about being a “wolf in sheep’s clothing” or being inauthentic. It is a path of careful consideration and moderation. I believe that in the church sense walking in the middle might require a degree of boundary setting and also a bit of a “thick skin”.

just my $0.02. Your mileage may vary.

[Anonymous]

Once I started viewing stuff as non literal truth (like Bom is just as holy as narnia or whatever, and realizing that JS was just another religious nut – with som good and bad sides), my church commitment drop to where *I* want it to be. I don’t pay tithing. We are really struggling financially and always have (my wife can’t work due to mental health issues). So now, instead of hoping to be financially blessed for paying thithing, I now KNOW that I will be financially blessed for NOT paying tithing. I am being blessed by receiving the amount of money, every month, that I would normally pay to the church.

I now go when I want to and don’t go when I don’t want to.

I truly feel a sense of peace that I have never felt before in my life.

I am much less judgement all.

Much more accepting and loving. And more “me”.

I’m angry when I’m angry. I’m sad when I’m sad. I’m burned out when I’m burned out. Instead of always trying to put on a smile and go on.

I’m just more “me” when I’m not orthodox.

Being a non literal believer also makes me able to not do all the mental gymnastics with apologetics etc. all that is just (annoying) stuff.

Again, this change didn’t come over night. It took me years, but it has truly been an inspiring spiritual journey. I truly feel like my eyes and heart have been opened.

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[Anonymous]

Bear wrote:

I’m just more “me” when I’m not orthodox.

…

I truly feel like my eyes and heart have been opened.

I love these comments.

I think that is why God sees fit to allow things to happen and for people, even prophets, to be imperfect and problematic. How could we work to dig and prune if there was no reason to try our hand at pruning stuff? There is no other way.

God allowed Joseph to try to figure things out…and sometimes he got things wrong. God’s plan is not about avoiding mistakes, but dealing with them.

That helps me reconcile Joseph Smith. He was a prophet dealing with mistakes and imperfection. God allows that. And that helps me figure out my life and meaning.

[Author]

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