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Heber13 wrote:
God allowed Joseph to try to figure things out…and sometimes he got things wrong. God’s plan is not about avoiding mistakes, but dealing with them.That helps me reconcile Joseph Smith. He was a prophet dealing with mistakes and imperfection. God allows that. And that helps me figure out my life and meaning.
I love this so much Heber. I’m so glad I posted this topic, because I was having a ROUGH time and didn’t really know who to talk to about the way I was feeling. I can’t talk to my family, because they are either non-members or very orthodox. Both sides of that spectrum have plenty to say about Joseph Smith…. but I always appreciate hearing the honest, reflective, thoughtful responses of people here.
This is what I needed to hear.
ConfusedMolly wrote:So, how can I stay LDS when I’m questioning if Joseph Smith even had the first vision… if he was even a prophet… Because if he didn’t have the first vision and if he wasn’t a prophet, I’m left in a very scary spot.
I’m upset, I’m scared, I’m confused, I’m heartbroken…
It is extremely troubling when everything gets turned upside down, I’ve been there. Over time I have fortunately been able to reconstruct a faith and a life that includes the church. Today it can be too easy for me to dismiss the ideas that I used to have, and I sometimes forget how I used to think and feel.
Today I say “why reconcile Joseph? This isn’t the church of Joseph Smith.” As Terryl Givens says “we shouldn’t be singing praises to any man, we should be praising Christ.” The power of God is manifest through the very weak tools (men) he uses to accomplish his work.
With time I have learned to lean heavily on a few key points:
– Men are and always will be weak fallible beings, all mankind. “Don’t trust in the arm of flesh” We have to rely on direct communications of the spirit. We can use promptings from men to get us rolling, but we need to turn to the spirit for our personal answers.
– Don’t expect everyone to receive the same answers. People are unique, the way they think and understand will be too, the Lord gives answers according to our ability to understand.
– Religious culture is always as fallible as man. It is very easy to be caught up and led astray by culture.
– Power corrupts, the higher the level of power the higher the chance of corruption. This is human nature and applies to all humans.
– The church is more of a tool or a process than a destination or trophy. Daniel could have misunderstood his purpose in waxing Mr Miyagi’s cars or sanding his deck, we may initially misunderstand the full purpose of our church membership.
Great post, Orson…. just….great post! Orson wrote:
Daniel could have misunderstood his purpose in waxing Mr Miyagi’s cars or sanding his deck, we may initially misunderstand the full purpose of our church membership.:clap: I like that one!I have a few more thoughts so please excuse me while I continue. 🙂 If we are to remain a true and “living” faith we need to not become fossilized. Some have critiqued that the correlation program could have an unintended consequence of making a fossil out of our church. Living things grow and change. There is a danger in “looking back”, getting stuck in the past and becoming a pillar of salt.
One of my favorite Brian Johnston quotes: not saying Joseph thought he was a fraud but considering the worst case scenario “even if Joseph saw himself as a fraud, he still got some things right.”
Orson wrote:
– The church is more of a tool or a process than a destination or trophy. Daniel could have misunderstood his purpose in waxing Mr Miyagi’s cars or sanding his deck, we may initially misunderstand the full purpose of our church membership.
I seriously love this, thanks Orson. I am trying to rebuild my framework right now (after it all came tumbling down) and I think viewing the church as a process and a tool is really going to help my perspective.
Before my faith crisis, I definitely viewed the Church and Joseph Smith as perfect. That’s how everything was presented to me and what I built my faith and testimony on. I wish we could have more “real” conversations in the church and share analogies like you just shared. The church is simply a tool to help us in our progression towards God.
Something that hit me awhile ago was that there is not going to be an “LDS church” in heaven. That may seem obvious to everyone, but it was an “ah ha” moment for me. When I think about it like that, I am more patient and forgiving of the “church” because even if it is as close to the truth as we can get, it’s still not God. I don’t need to devote my life and time to the “church.” I need to devote my time and energy to God and what I believe He would have me do.
Good thoughts Molly, and I agree, the “ah ha” can be a nice relief of trying to make something work that just doesn’t work anymore. The challenge can be that we swing too far the other way.
“If the church isn’t the church we thought it was, or JS isn’t what we thought he was….then what is the point of believing in it at all?”
Once you get there…the doors open up to new thoughts on why the church is valuable as it is. That leads to reconstructing faith in more meaningful ways.
That is why I think God allows us to walk the path of disaffection. It leads to growth. For some, that growth best happens outside the church…but that can still be growth.
For others, we can stayLDS and find truth and meaning in the church as we are, not pretending to be what we thought we were.
Orson wrote:
The church is more of a tool or a process than a destination or trophy. Daniel could have misunderstood his purpose in waxing Mr Miyagi’s cars or sanding his deck, we may initially misunderstand the full purpose of our church membership.
I like this but…
🙂 In the story Mr. Miyagi is steering Daniel down the path because he knows the beginning from the end. He’s leading Daniel some place even though Daniel can’t see it. The example still fits but I think it’s important to think about who or what represents Mr. Miyagi and who represents Daniel… and recognize that the roles people play aren’t permanent. Mr. Miyagis become Daniel, Daniel becomes Mr. Miyagis, and the roles are fluid. We transition in and out of them throughout the course of our lives.
nibbler preaching the godhood couplet. 😆 
I thought Mr Miyagi wanted to cut back on the price of a home help. Two birds. SamBee wrote:
I thought Mr Miyagi wanted to cut back on the price of a home help.
Sanding the deck and waxing the car and catching one fly with chopsticks cost him a working 1948 Ford Super DeLuxe Club convertible. That’s not so cheap???
:think:
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