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SamBee wrote:Brown wrote:
is murder really that bad in the grand scheme? the goal of this life is to die and go to heaven anyway.
Yes, I think it is, because it is a violation of the plan.
One might argue playing baby roulette by having casual and indiscriminate sex is violating the plan as well. Bringing a person into this world at the wrong time and place might just be as bad as taking them out at the wrong time and place. Of course that implies there is a specific time and place for all of us, of which I am not sure.
Absolutely, brown. In the hierarchy of violation of the plan, being an indiscriminate baby-daddy (or baby-mommy) ranks FAR higher on my own ranking scale than many types of killing (notice, I did not say “murder”). I think that bringing souls into this world in an irresponsible manner could be as “sinful” as murder in certain situations. Absolutely I do. I hate to see babies born into some of these horrendous situations. That is why I am not so hard core opposed to abortion. Perhaps abortion is less of a sin than actually subjecting some of these fetuses to the pain and misery that irresponsible folks are doing. (once again – I am satanic to my family 👿 ) I think that is where fornication becomes a sin — because it does cause harm and misery to “someone” – the fetus/child/teenager/adult that is created by the irresponsible act.However – I don’t equate sex with pregnancy at all. Yes, I know how the birds and the bees works, but, two adults who are very responsible (birth control) and engage in these acts – well that is a whole other story. Next to murder in sin? No way.
Perhaps if we want to use a hierarchy of sin (which I do not like) than I would say that responsible fornication is no where near a serious sin like murder, rape, stealing, kidnapping etc. But irresponsible fornication — yeah, maybe, in certain situations.
cwald wrote:
However – I don’t equate sex with pregnancy at all. Yes, I know how the birds and the bees works, but, two adults who are very responsible (birth control) and engage in these acts – well that is a whole other story. Next to murder in sin? No way.You have to remember when most of the scripture we use was written. Birth control was not even a possibility.
Quote:Perhaps if we want to use a hierarchy of sin (which I do not like) than I would say that responsible fornication is no where near a serious sin like murder, rape, stealing, kidnapping etc. But irresponsible fornication — yeah, maybe, in certain situations.
I made a similar comment in Ray’s other thread about this topic. I don’t think you can make a hierarchy because this world and us as people are too complex.
Brown wrote:cwald wrote:
However – I don’t equate sex with pregnancy at all. Yes, I know how the birds and the bees works, but, two adults who are very responsible (birth control) and engage in these acts – well that is a whole other story. Next to murder in sin? No way.
You have to remember when most of the scripture we use was written. Birth control was not even a possibility.
Right. So where in the hell is our modern revelation from the prophets to update the commandments and doctrine for our time? This is a sore point for me. If we believe in modern revelation and that it is vital, and yet us morons here at StayLDS can use reason and logic to debunk this kind of doctrine— than lets see it. I mean, even the resident parser agrees that the church is wrong on this. Ray made the comment that SWK WAS WRONG. That’s bold – but he is absolutely correct. SWK got it wrong. He made a mistake and we have been paying for it for the last 40 years. So why won’t the prophets come out and say it, so our religion can evolved and remain viable to the people of our time?
Okay – I got to quit this thread for the day. I’m getting pissed.
cwald wrote:Brown wrote:cwald wrote:
However – I don’t equate sex with pregnancy at all. Yes, I know how the birds and the bees works, but, two adults who are very responsible (birth control) and engage in these acts – well that is a whole other story. Next to murder in sin? No way.
You have to remember when most of the scripture we use was written. Birth control was not even a possibility.
Right. So where in the hell is our modern revelation from the prophets to update the commandments and doctrine for our time? This is a sore point for me. If we believe in modern revelation and that it is vital, and yet us morons here at StayLDS can use reason and logic to debunk this kind of doctrine— than lets see it. .
All the prophets and Q12 are ancient, too, though. It is hard to accept revelation that goes against what you already believe. It is also rare to even ask. Why do you think it took so long to get blacks into the priesthood? Because nobody would dare ask god and accept the real answer until the 70s. I don’t think God very often just reveals things to humans unless they sincerely ask and are in a position to use the information given. So can you imagine anyone in church leadership prayerfully asking if the church needs to back of the hardline dogma on chastity? I can’t. They already assume they know the way, so why stop and ask for directions.
… doug wrote:cwald wrote:
Right. So where in the hell is our modern revelation from the prophets to update the commandments and doctrine for our time?Well, we
didget some useful updates regarding earrings and tattoos recently, but other than that, I couldn’t really say. 😆 I think you intended that sarcasticly, I certainly took it as such. Many here would argue that the earing and tattoo “useful updates” are just further examples of cultural assumptions, and not modern revelation at all.
In October 2010 General Conference, Elder Kearon said the following:
Quote:Last week I met a 92-year-old man who had been involved in many of the major campaigns of World War II. He had survived three injuries, one of which was a land-mine blast to the jeep in which he was traveling, which killed the driver. He learned that to survive in a minefield, you must follow exactly in the tracks of the vehicle moving ahead of you. Any deviation to the right or left could—and indeed did—prove fatal.
Our prophets and apostles, leaders and parents continually point out the track we must follow if we would avoid a destructive blast to our souls. They know the path that has been safely cleared of mines (or indeed scorpions), and they tirelessly invite us to follow behind them. There are so many devastating traps to entice us from the track. Straying into drugs, alcohol, pornography, or immoral behavior over the Internet or on a video game will head us straight toward an explosion. Deviating to the right or the left of the safe track ahead of us, whether because of laziness or rebelliousness, can prove fatal to our spiritual lives. There are no exceptions to this rule.
To me, this is why the church leaders put emphasis on obedience to law of chastity…to avoid the minefields of diseases, unwanted pregnancy, and psychological/self-esteem issues that can come to a youth that is not mature or not ready for the adult-required consequences that go along with being sexually active.
I can understand and accept their intentions. I do not always agree with their tactics, which don’t always teach the real issues to youth, and can too often just use scare tactics to try to promote celibacy until marriage…after which all bets are off and you’re on your own to do as you will as a married couple (which freaks some couples out).
My question is: Do they really “know the path that has been safely cleared of mines (or indeed scorpions), and they tirelessly invite us to follow behind them”? My followup question is, what about times you stay on the tracks, and you still get blasted in life?
PiperAlpha wrote:To me, this is why the church leaders put emphasis on obedience to law of chastity…to avoid the minefields of diseases, unwanted pregnancy, and psychological/self-esteem issues that can come to a youth that is not mature or not ready for the adult-required consequences that go along with being sexually active.
I agree with this. In our hypersexual society, where sex is commerce, it is usually presented as enjoyable and consequence free. Of course, it often isn’t. Apart from the problem of deadly, or at least painful, illness, the consequences of rejection, abuse and mockery are there for many people. And for women, there’s the issue of pregnancy.
SamBee wrote:PiperAlpha wrote:To me, this is why the church leaders put emphasis on obedience to law of chastity…to avoid the minefields of diseases, unwanted pregnancy, and psychological/self-esteem issues that can come to a youth that is not mature or not ready for the adult-required consequences that go along with being sexually active.
I agree with this. In our hypersexual society, where sex is commerce, it is usually presented as enjoyable and consequence free. Of course, it often isn’t. Apart from the problem of deadly, or at least painful, illness, the consequences of rejection, abuse and mockery are there for many people. And for women, there’s the issue of pregnancy.
I agree too. I think I mentioned, that I agree with the basis of the law of chastity. I’m glad it is part of the church doctrine and teachings, and I’m glad I “mostly” followed it before marriage. It certainly has been a great benefit to me, and jwald, and the consequences have been nothing but positive – FOR US.
That is not always the case though, and what I really dislike is the “next to murder” rhetoric which I think pretty well does as much damage to some folks, as the benefits that one might get by following the LoC. Where is the happy medium? Well – I;m not sure our tribe has a happy medium – in most things. We are so “all or nothing” and black and white, that we just have very little room or tolerance for gray and shades of color.
cwald wrote:Where is the happy medium? Well – I;m not sure our tribe has a happy medium – in most things. We are so “all or nothing” and black and white, that we just have very little room or tolerance for gray and shades of color.
I like happy mediums. I like temperance, and tolerance, and middle-ground. I agree with you, cwald, our tribe doesn’t appear to accept those. No, it appears what is valued is the extreme prude, or the stage coach driver than can keep the wheels as far away from the edge of the cliff as possible. This leads from reasonable direction on health standards, to saints worrying if coffee ice cream will obstruct the spirit in our lives. It leads from reasonable direction on modesty and chastity, to youth being ostracized for “dating” before the arbitrary age of 16.I like the middle ground.
SamBee wrote:PiperAlpha wrote:To me, this is why the church leaders put emphasis on obedience to law of chastity…to avoid the minefields of diseases, unwanted pregnancy, and psychological/self-esteem issues that can come to a youth that is not mature or not ready for the adult-required consequences that go along with being sexually active.
I agree with this. In our hypersexual society, where sex is commerce, it is usually presented as enjoyable and consequence free. Of course, it often isn’t. Apart from the problem of deadly, or at least painful, illness, the consequences of rejection, abuse and mockery are there for many people. And for women, there’s the issue of pregnancy.
This is certainly true, but that is not what the church is saying. There is a big difference between:
A) Don’t have sex until married or you will end up in hell, evil sinners!
and
We want you to be happy and have a successful life free of pain and suffering. Delaying sexual activity until you are in a position to deal with the adult consequences will great increase the likelihood of that. And really, to me, I would put driving, guns, and fire in the same boat. Do we make those sins and pretend they don’t exist because they have the potential to ruin lives? No, we teach children that they must avoid them until they are old enough to properly participate in those activities and then we teach them the safe ways to participate.
Brown wrote:This is certainly true, but that is not what the church is saying. There is a big difference between:
A) Don’t have sex until married or you will end up in hell, evil sinners!
and
We want you to be happy and have a successful life free of pain and suffering. Delaying sexual activity until you are in a position to deal with the adult consequences will great increase the likelihood of that. And really, to me, I would put driving, guns, and fire in the same boat. Do we make those sins and pretend they don’t exist because they have the potential to ruin lives? No, we teach children that they must avoid them until they are old enough to properly participate in those activities and then we teach them the safe ways to participate.
Yes – very good point. I try to teach this way – and really when I talk about sin, of ANY kind, it’s all about consequences of making bad choices IN THIS LIFE. I don’t have time or the patience to be worrying about the next life – this one is challenging enough already.
Mormon chastity is a great example of a poorly taught doctrine IMO, but I agree with the general premise of the “commandment” because there is so much potential for bad consequences.
I like your example of guns and fire. Yep. That is how I see it. It’s also why I have such a hard time with many of our commandments today. I just think we have gone way over board, and really took that driving the carriage as far away from the cliff as possible analogy way to too far.
I agree, cwald. Sometimes I think this is where saints like you can make a difference in the lives of youth you teach, because they can hear a sensible approach to the gospel principles, and not always just rhetoric. It strengthens the orchestra.
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