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Yesterday in HP we were discussing prayer. When asked to determine how we receive answers to prayer I offered the following Quote:I have found that when I rely on a warm feeling or an emotional answer to prayer it proves unreliable. The only way I have ever determined that I have gotten an answere to prayer was when I use the intelligence god gave me and figure it out on my own.
So do any of you think this is a reliable method of answers to prayer or do you feel there must be something more extraordinary such and an overwhelming feeling of satisfaction or something like that?
I rarely get answers to prayers in “classic” ways – especially a “burning in the bosom”. I’m fine with Oliver getting answers that way, but he also was told to remember when peace was spoken to his soul. For me, answers usually come either in flashes of thought that come totally out of the blue or in a sudden feeling of peace and calm. I know those things can be seen as perfectly natural and non-spiritual, but I feel them in slightly different ways than “normal” for me. It’s really hard to describe adequately, but I am learning to recognize the difference.
The most interesting thing for me is that I have not understood some of the more obvious experiences in my life (or, more precisely, I have not understood the WHY of the experiences) at the time and in the immediate future. In some cases, following those answers has led to seemingly horrible results – like extended unemployment, in TWO cases. However, in more extended hindsight, I have been able to see quite clearly how the seemingly bad results of following those answers put me in positions where I needed to be at that future time – and I can’t fathom any other way I could have been there at that future time without having followed those answers.
I don’t pretend to understand the how and the why of most of the answers I’ve received, but they’ve been a net positive in the end – and it’s really not “close” for me when viewed in hindsight AND when viewed from the angle of my family, not just me.
Cadence wrote:Quote:I have found that when I rely on a warm feeling or an emotional answer to prayer it proves unreliable. The only way I have ever determined that I have gotten an answere to prayer was when I use the intelligence god gave me and figure it out on my own.
My formula: Intuition + logic + sudden burst of understanding = answer
I do not trust emotion or “burning in the bosom” answer to prayers, as I have felt that many times for some crazy different answers. Just because it “feels right” does not work me. The problem is, I have felt that same “spirit” if you will, and those same “emotions” doing things I knew I shouldn’t be doing and praying about things I knew the answer to already, but wanted to get a different answer, and I did get different answers – if I used emotions to do so. I’m pretty sure the people who followed Jim Jones to their graves had a burning in the bosom, a it “feels right” attitude, and an emotional answer to their prayers right up until the day they killed themselves????
In trying to define an answer it seems we most look for some sort of indicator or sign that says something is right or correct. But in doing that the answer becomes secondary or dependent on the “sign”. If I feel a burning it’s yes, if it’s a stupor of thought it’s a no. But what about the answer, the thing itself and it’s consequences. A man prays and feels prompted to move himself and his family across 2 states because he feels the spirit moved him to do so and then lives in poverty. What was the answer, the prompting or the result? For me 47 years ago it was fervent prayer to know if I should go to a service academy and then being accepted when four people ahead of me turned down the appointment and then fervent fasting and prayer to know if I should resign when it was clear something was wrong. I received no answers but the consequences were that my father died never having forgiven me for the decision I made. At each major event in my life I was left with no answers and only consequences. I have always envied and at the same time been skeptical of people who claim answers. What I have come to believe is that I should just pray but not pray for something whether it be guidance or help or whatever. I think that maybe it’s better to try to hear and not ask. GBSmith wrote:In trying to define an answer it seems we most look for some sort of indicator or sign that says something is right or correct. But in doing that the answer becomes secondary or dependent on the “sign”. If I feel a burning it’s yes, if it’s a stupor of thought it’s a no. But what about the answer, the thing itself and it’s consequences. A man prays and feels prompted to move himself and his family across 2 states because he feels the spirit moved him to do so and then lives in poverty. What was the answer, the prompting or the result? For me 47 years ago it was fervent prayer to know if I should go to a service academy and then being accepted when four people ahead of me turned down the appointment and then fervent fasting and prayer to know if I should resign when it was clear something was wrong. I received no answers but the consequences were that my father died never having forgiven me for the decision I made. At each major event in my life I was left with no answers and only consequences. I have always envied and at the same time been skeptical of people who claim answers. What I have come to believe is that I should just pray but not pray for something whether it be guidance or help or whatever. I think that maybe it’s better to try to hear and not ask.
Yes I have had the some type of experience. I prayed and prayed to get an answer to a life changing decision. I believed I got an answer and followed through. It turned out to be a disaster as far as I could tell but who knows for sure what would have happened if I had taken the other path. At any rate to many experiences like that have turned me into a major skeptic on answers to prayer. Yet I still believe there is the possibility that God can answer prayers but like you said it is may be better to just pray and stop asking for stuff.
Well Cadence, again you and I seem to see things eye to eye on a lot of this stuff. This exact topic is one of the primary pillars of my faith crisis. As I began to look back on my life I realized that the “answers” I had convinced myself I was getting were not really there. I remember when I graduated from BYU and was trying to decide which job to take. I prayed and prayed and fasted and went to the temple, etc. I finally told my wife I felt I should go to company x. The truth is, I didn’t really “feel” anything. I just decided that in the absence of anything compelling, I would just go with company x (salary was higher). At the time, I chalked this up to the “spirit.” Later, during my crisis, I had to get real honest with myself. The truth is, for all the major decisions that I felt deserved an “answer” I got nothin’. I made my own decisions, using my own brain (well, at least as far as I can tell. My wife would point out that it
could have beenan answer). Now I digress. I have thought a lot about this, and I recognize there are a myriad of explanations for this that would support the Mormon worldview. It doesn’t matter, I felt like I didn’t get any answers. Ultimately, I can’t distinguish between the “spirit,” my own mind, my own emotions, etc. So I end up just doing what I think is best.
I have no idea why I have ideas, why I get thoughts, or why I am compelled to do something over something else. For me, there are many good psychological explanations that go further than the Mormon worldview.
So I guess my answer to the question would be – I have no idea. I have no idea if I get answers, or if it’s all just in my mind, or if those are the same thing. I do know that if the Holy Ghost is necessary for good, or even optimal, decision making, or for having good ideas the origin of which is unknown, then I am convinced the Holy Ghost is not unique to Mormonism and there is no difference between the “gift” of the Holy Ghost and that which everyone else on earth has. This doesn’t fit well in the Mormon theological box. Another alternative is that there are no answers from God/Holy Ghost. That doesn’t fit well either.
I will say, though, that I have given up trying to make sense of it. I figure if God wants to make an answer known to me (and yes, I do ask lots of questions) then he’ll let me know in a way that I am unable to mistake it for something else. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable expectation.
There’s post on Mormon Matters by Heidi that I was just reading. Several of the comments go to the heart of my problems. One person said that 95% of people in his opinion that pray sincerely about the BoM will receive a witness and another has a clear black and white view of the world based on a BoM passage, church of the devil, church of the Saviour, i.e the LDS church. For years even as my shelf of doubts got more laden, I’d assumed it was my fault. Not any more. A few years ago, our ward, trying to be more LDS than the church, was challenged to read the BoM in a month and not just to the end of the year as Pres Hinckley had asked us to do with the promise that our lives would change and we’d receive a witness and blessings. It didn’t happen and the margins of my scriptures are now filled with notes of stuff that doesn’t make sense to me. Anyway as I was reading those comments I just had this feeling of what’s the point. This is a tough one… I guess for me, answers to my prayers usually happen in hindsight. I’ll look back at a situation and realize “Hey! My prayer was answered, it might not have been what I wanted, but God knew what was best and gave me that, and who would have guessed… it worked” Usually thats how it happens for me. And not too sound too TBM *shudder* lol…
😆 I find a lot of my prayers are answered while I am reading scripture, (not always scripture, I can be reading a book also), and something just really hits me in a different way. I’m able to apply that to whatever prayer is in my life at the moment.Cadence wrote:
So do any of you think this is a reliable method of answers to prayer or do you feel there must be something more extraordinary such and an overwhelming feeling of satisfaction or something like that?
Ways answers have come to me:dreams
flashes of ‘pure intelligence’ *
nothing but a sense of having been guided, after the fact, from moment to moment promptings with no understanding at the
time
moments of mystic ‘Oneness’ *
Words just popping into my mouth where I didn’t know what the heck I was saying
I have never had the warm burning in the bosom experience. Though once I did burn, but it was from the crown of my head to the soles of my feet, which I would say is a different thing. I think.
HiJolly
* 100% accuracy on these — the rest, not so much.
GB, don’t let Jared affect you. 
In his defense, I really do think his internal thought process basically is:
Quote:If someone like I can get an answer, surely anyone can get an answer if they just are sincere enough.
It’s hard to tell someone whose mistaken view is based in humility (and Jared’s really is, albeit an obnoxious expression of it) that not everyone does or can experience things like that – at least, not in their eyes, and, at most, not ever.
Actually Jared doesn’t bother me that much since he seems to have mellowed and I agree seems sincere. The other one, KenS was more problematic. Reading his stuff reminded me of what it must have been like to sit and listen to a 2 hour sermon from someone who liked to remind everybody that they were going to hell. I think that if I thought he was the rule rather than the exception, I’d just give it up. As it is I don’t so I’ll just be grumpy for awhile and then get over it. Old-Timer wrote:It’s hard to tell someone whose mistaken view is based in humility.
I’ve been thinking about humility lately. It’s one of those words that I think is rather ill-defined in Mormonism (like faith). I think humility (in Mormonism) tends to be centered around the authority-obedience paradigm. Those who reject the authority are clearly not humble. Those who don’t obey are proud. Those who do not get the designed answer to their prayer must be at fault, or proud, or whatever. In other words, I’m not convinced this sort of behavior is real humility. I think it’s a sort of pseudo-humility, or faux-humility that’s based around the idea that someone else knows what’s best for us. The problem with this sort of humility (as evidenced in many religions) is it results in close-mindedness.The only definition I’ve been able to come up with that I think more purely fits the nature of humility, and allows for those of use who have had a very humble faith crisis, is – openness to the truth. Humility is a measure of how open we are to the truth, no matter what it may be.
To tie this back to the OP, part of God answering my prayers is my willingness to be shown whatever the “truth” is. For some, like myself, and perhaps GBSmith, the results might be less spectacular, and less convincing than it might be for someone like Jared.
Euhemerus wrote:…part of God answering my prayers is my willingness to be shown whatever the “truth” is.
I agree. My most spiritual times have been either when I was at rock-bottom, or when I was still – in nature or meditating – open. I’m still not sure exactly who God is…but I do believe I am a child of God…& that the “kingdom of God is within” as Jesus said. So, when I pray, I think I’m tapping into my own divinity, which somehow is connected to others’ divinities & especially our Creator(s).I was just reading a (LDS) book about Near-Death-Experiences which said how spirits don’t use sound vibrations to communicate like we do (makes sense) but use thoughts & energy. So, maybe some “spiritual” answers I’ve received from praying are more a reflection of tapping into the kingdom of God within. I’ve heard God expressed as compassion, balance & humility…& also pure knowledge, love & action… And it makes sense to me that how my prayers are answered involves those experiences. Not just the burning (I’ve been misled by that too)…God gave us both a brain & heart/feelings & “prayer changes people; people change things.”
Here is how I receive answer to prayers: 1.
On very important issues, it’s been an overwhelming “baptism” of the Spirit which overcomes my body and makes it hard to move.It’s extremely intense to the point I can barely stand it, but it’s not frightening. Picture a million volts of electricity running through your body, but not hurting you in any way. This has happened to me twice in my lifetime when I asked questions about central beliefs, such as the existence of God and the truthfulness of the Church. Average time in divine connection was about 3 minutes, and when I stood up from the prayer, I felt as though I had almost come into the presence of God. Although I know I hadn’t, but the intensity of the spiritual feelings were undeniable certainly not something I produced myself. This convinces me the Church is true and to not forsake it, even when I’m treated terribly by others, see gaping holes in the policies of the Church, and other deterrents to my faith.
2.
On less important issues, I’ve had experiences where the same phrase beats itself into my head over and over again and I can’t stop it.The situation I’m referring to related to the childless state of my wife and I. The words, “I have to adopt” came to my mind over and over again and it was accompanied by strong spiritual feelings that brought tears to my eyes. 3.
When receiving revelation about scriptures, it’s a thought which, my mind “cathects” an idea(to use a Freudian term used to describe one’s attachment to another person they might be falling in love with). It’s as if my mind latches on to the thought. When I share it with others, they seem inspired by it. One case in point, I was reflecting on D&C 121 where it describes how those who use the priesthood properly find their kingdom will “flow unto them without compulsory means”. I was a priesthood leader at the time, and it dawned on me that this meant your entire stewardship is full of people who show intrinsic motivation — not compliant behavior born out of the promise of blessings or fear of punishment, but righteous behavior, or doing good, for its own sake alone.
It opened up the whole literature I’d read on managing change (particularly unfreezing other people’s non-acceptance of your ideas. It helped me motivate an entire quorum of men who had been underperformers for years to live the gospel of service for its own sake, and for the sake of their character.
4.
On two occasions, it was the voice of a woman or gentle man reassuring me or telling me not to worry about certain matters of prayer — once my unemployment.If you read in the first few verses of 3 Nephi Chapter 11, you read about how God’s voice sounded when He introduced the descent of His Son to the Nephites. This describes the voice I’ve heard in my mind, and it’s not my own (please don’t suggest meds for me!). Regarding the burning in the bosom, I’ve it’s been a mixed bag whether that works. There are times when I act on it and the action I take blows up in my face. Other times it leads to a dead-end. Other times nothing necessarly good happens, but I just feel good I acted on the decision I made using the burning in the bosom as its basis.
That’s how I get answers to my prayers.
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