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Heard someone talk about being brainwashed in the mormon church. Listened to the account of saying things like “going on a mission” and “the church is true” by the time he was two. I didn’t come from a family that did that kinda thing. We as children were not encouraged to bear our testimonies in sac mtg or anything like that. But, nonetheless, I find myself very conditioned by the mormon experience.
So, can you help me decide the difference between training up children in righteous principles and brainwashing?
Thanks.
There was a quote about this directly from conference this fall. I’ll look it up for you…. Here is a pretty good quote from Elder Christofferson from this most recent conference. Is a pretty direct answer of how he thinks on this topic: I have heard a few parents state that they don’t want to impose the gospel on their children but want them to make up their own minds about what they will believe and follow. They think that in this way they are allowing children to exercise their agency. What they forget is that the intelligent use of agency requires knowledge of the truth, of things as they really are (see D&C 93:24). Without that, young people can hardly be expected to understand and evaluate the alternatives that come before them. Parents should consider how the adversary approaches their children. He and his followers are not promoting objectivity but are vigorous, multimedia advocates of sin and selfishness.
Talk titled Moral Discipline.
Poppyseed wrote:So, can you help me decide the difference between training up children in righteous principles and brainwashing?
Thanks.
I’ll take a stab at it. Of course, as always, this is my diagonal opinion fwiw, but I think one way to define brainwashing is teaching a particular principle/ dogma and strongly discouraging the person from studying any other way…even threatening bad things if they do.
Frankly, it seems all dogmatic religions do it to some extent, as they basically teach that if you don’t live “their way,” you will go to a worse place in the next life.
Your wording of “righteous principles” is of course, common in the church, but is really implying “our definition of what is righteous.” One of my pet peeves is the phrase “family values,” often attached to discussions against gay rights; ie, if one is for gay rights, they are against “family values.” In my new approach to morality/ethics, I view those opposed to gay rights as less “family oriented” then if they are for them — since many in our families are gay, and I want them to have equal rights to what I have.
So, (sorry for the tangent there…), I think pure non-brainwashing would be an approach to teach our children to search for themselves when they can, what path works for them, and be completely open to and respectful of their choice. That is unlikely to happen in most churches…since it opens the door for a decline in membership, IMO.
In our day and age, a lot of things are described with very extreme words, so much so that those highly-charged words start to lose meaning. I am talking about things like calling someone you disagree with a “Nazi,” or saying that a church you don’t like is a “cult.” I think this happens a lot when talking about religion, especially when people are very emotional about their viewpoint. Teaching doctrine, even indoctrination or initiation, is what religion is all about. Yes, religions try to indoctrinate people and get them to believe in them. That is the whole point of their existence. It would be like saying that schools should not pressure children to learn reading, writing and math. They should just be there to let children do whatever they want to explore the world of learning during the day. See? That sounds silly. Brainwashing? Look at the word objectively, not in the context of religion. Brainwashing is a process of using torture and extreme or repetitive psychological shock to break a person’s personality, causing them to forget what they know or to implant a new or even multiple fragmented personalities. Is that really the right word to describe what happens when parents teach their children and raise them in the LDS culture and Church? No.
Quote:Brainwashing? Look at the word objectively, not in the context of religion. Brainwashing is a process of using torture and extreme or repetitive psychological shock to break a person’s personality, causing them to forget what they know or to implant a new or even multiple fragmented personalities. Is that really the right word to describe what happens when parents teach their children and raise them in the LDS culture and Church? No.
Ok yeah. I am looking objectively and i don’t think it happens in the LDS church meaning the most extreme definition. i guess I am trying to understand why people use that word when describing LDS upbringing. What are they describing then?
Poppyseed wrote:i guess I am trying to understand why people use that word when describing LDS upbringing. What are they describing then?
Brainwashing really isn’t the right word. It’s overkill.
I think people that use that word are being overly dramatic. I don’t mean to say that dismissively. They are often mad about what happened to them. It is very personal, and I think they quite often have a valid point. Let’s face it, some parents and teachers (in the LDS Church) aren’t that great at presenting their beliefs. Fear is a terrible and inefficient motivator, but it’s a tool that any person can use when they have power and it is almost universally effective. It’s just so negative though. What happens when children are brought up in fear when relating to their cultural religion? It tends to create very dysfunctional results.
Are we repetitive in our Church? Yes. Does that kind of seem like brainwashing? Yes, sort of. Like I said though, that is far too extreme of a word. We repeat things that we like to hear. People like to feel that feeling when they say or hear “I know the Church is True.” Pick your favorite phrase. What is happening? It’s a religious psychological process of reinforcement.
It’s totally not that same thing as screaming at me “You are not Valoel! Confess that you are not Valoel” and then water boarding me for half an hour, repeated without sleep for days on end. That is brainwashing.
Better words to use IMO?
Teaching
Training
Reinforcement
Indoctrination
Initiation
I agree with Valoel. The term isn’t being used correctly IMO in this case. Brainwashing is the systematic destructuring of a captive’s beliefs, usually through more strenuous means such as drugs or torture. In modern day it could be said that we brainwash by TV ads The rub for me when people use the term brainwashing and the any church is it implies something against our will. Not so! Everyone I know is willingly allowing themselves to let the teachings in. Submission is the more correct term here I believe. So the question really is, “Is it OK that my children submit themselves to my teaching?” The answer to that is this, “How much do you trust yourself?” “Do you trust your children more than yourself to discover truth?”
Lastly, Rix, I appreciate your comments. Though I feel they need to be expanded beyond thinking only religion does this. Or in other words, religion needs to be understood to define many things. Commercialism is a religion and it teaches much the same directives, “Go our way, or you will end up in a lesser place.” “Shop at Target or you will end up buying from Walmart.” This is common to all walks and forms of life. Therefore I don’t feel it is brainwashing – it is dogma though. Most lastly, I like what you said about “family values.”
Poppyseed wrote:Ok yeah. I am looking objectively and i don’t think it happens in the LDS church meaning the most extreme definition. i guess I am trying to understand why people use that word when describing LDS upbringing. What are they describing then?
More directly, Poppyseed, I believe people use this term because they are afraid that others are not willingly submitting themselves to the doctrine. I don’t think that it is possible for a grown person to be “brainwashed” by a formal religion any more than by a really good advertising campaign. So in that sense, it’s not the brainwashing that is the concern, it’s the honesty of the message. And that is, I believe, the crux of why people use the term brainwashing; they don’t believe the authenticity or honesty of the religion. That is the true concern. But brainwashing blames the religion instead of the person, so it’s less offensive. Unless you consider how offensive it is to have someone tell you that they think you are weak enough to be brainwashed by a religion – that’s offensive to me.
Children are a different matter in a way. They are young. They are forming abilities to discern and willing to absorb much. So the term brainwashing may have a little more application here. Therefore the need for good parents that are trusting themselves to discern truth and teach. Thus why I appreciate Elder Christopherson’s perspective so much. It’s missing in our day – parents that are bold enough to testify to their children.
Elder Christofferson wrote:What they forget is that the intelligent use of agency requires knowledge of the truth, of things as they really are (see D&C 93:24). Without that, young people can hardly be expected to understand and evaluate the alternatives that come before them.
It seems to me that the church also forgets about this by presenting it’s white-washed version of history and excommunicating those that try to present a more historically-accurate version of events.
Thanks Whoville. I appreciate your words and quotes. I suppose at the end of the day, anyone who says this is really just using it to support their own decision to leave. Perhaps it does neutralize the guilt. But it does, I admit, offend. I do however think that sometimes behaviors or practices that are not core gospel principles get woven into the “straight and narrow path” when perhaps they shouldn’t. For instance, I grew up with loads of guilt (not necessarily coming from my parents) about how sewing and craftiness made a righteous mormon woman. It wasn’t until college and mission life that I learned to champion the value of having a scriptorian for a mother.
I guess I am trying to empathize and also learn so that I don’t make the same mistakes.
I think in previous generations, even the hard-core version of brainwashing (torture, mental incapacitation) was a part of the mormon culture. The level of emotional abuse, coercion, manipulation, fear-mongering, etc. was at that extreme level. And, no doubt, it still exists in some orthodox homes, whether mormon or otherwise. And, I appreciate poppy’s OP because I have many conflicting ideas in my own mind about my kids going to church and hearing one thing, and then coming home and hearing another. When they hear it at church, it’s black and white, all or nothing, “all true”. When they hear it from me, it’s “this is possible”, “there may be more than one way to look at that”, etc.
So, they feel the strength of the “conviction” of those at church and certainly sense the ambivalence in my “exploratory” rhetoric. Who are they going to believe? Follow? I’m feeling a little nervous about what the next few years will bring with this multi-perspective paradigm which exists in our home. I hope for the best, especially as my boys grow to men, but I’m not so sure in the short/medium term…
As an admin here, I am going to request that everyone be VERY careful in this thread – for a VERY important reason. I will try to explain in my comment:swim, I agree with valoel and others who are trying to distinguish between “brainwashing” and “coersion” or “manipulation”. There is a HUGE difference, and I don’t think brainwashing EVER has been a part of “Mormon culture”. Levels and degrees of coersion happen in ALL groups, unfortunately, and manipulation is part of life – going strictly by the general meaning of the word, not just the extremes. Brainwashing, however, is different – and we MUST be EXTREMELY careful and precise when we use that term.
Has it existed in certain homes and families? Perhaps, but I would have to see it to label it as such. I just worry that the word is being used in some of these comments in such a way that the actual meaning of the word is being destroyed – and an incorrect stereotype is being perpetuated. I have NO problem asserting that brainwashing NEVER has been part of “Mormon culture” and absolutely is not so now. We MUST tackle issues of coersion and abusive manipulation – but that is NO more true of Mormonism than of any other religious culture (or corporate or societal culture, frankly).
Quote:So, can you help me decide the difference between training up children in righteous principles and [deleted] indoctrination?
(I’m just going to change the word brainwashing to indoctrination which is what is really meant. 90% of parenting is indoctrination. And without it, you get feral children. Here are some non-LDS forms of indoctrination:
– American children are taught that self-reliance and hard work are the recipe to success and that democracy is the best form of government.
– Evangelical children are taught that Mormon children are not Christian because (insert litany of reasons).
– Indian children are taught that life should include artistic and spiritual pursuits and that reflection is more important than being the center of attention.
– Muslim children are taught that modesty entails a woman being covered entirely so that her true beauty is only revealed to her husband.
– English children are taught that Shepherd’s pie is delicious, not vile & nasty.
Joking a bit on the last one, but basically, life is an acquired taste. What we see depends largely on where we sit. If your family is hugely liberal, holds La Leche League meetings in your house, thinks eating meat is equivalent to barbarism, and makes its own furniture, that colors your perspective. Likewise if your dad watches Glenn Beck every night, teaches you to shoot a rifle at age 8, and makes his own jerky in your garage. We only call it brainwashing when we disagree with the indoctrination. But even that disagreement is its own form of indoctrination.
The good news is that to a large extent, parental influence outweighs societal or other cultural influence. It certainly adds context to it.
hawkgrrrl wrote:The good news is that to a large extent, parental influence outweighs societal or other cultural influence. It certainly adds context to it.
Love your whle post, HG! So much of our communication is often lost in the written word…and there are so many perceived (and variant) definitions for words. So I can see why Ray is concerned about the wrong meaning getting used here.
From my perspective, just like HG said, “we” teach and are taught according to our culture and family “values.” It seems that is unavoidable. A century ago, a person could have spent his whole life not knowing about any other religious tradition than his own. Most in the world had very little if any formal education. The traditional family structure was critical and functional — each had their own role in the survival and protection of the family members. It was rare for most people to even begin to understand other vastly different ways of living and believing.
Today, many of us fortunate people have been blessed with an education. From that we have learned to understand, and even respect other’s diverse beliefs and lifestyles. The world is smaller today…at the push of a button we can communicate with somebody on the other side of the world. We can turn on the television and watch a show that reflects somebody’s story.
All of this, from a positive standpoint, allows us to have greater “tolerance” of others. Most of the fighting and wars of the world are perpetuated by the less educated cultures. There’s a reason for that. The more we understand the reason things happen, the better we can accept the results.
I think we understand why, in the past, the indoctrination of our children was as strict as it was. Hopefully today, we also understand why it is appropriate to allow our family members to study and explore individually the purpose of their life. If we don’t “give permission” for this to occur, it will happen anyway, and it will divide us. Nirvana comes when we can allow, and even encourage such exploration for each person in our circle of human contacts…and not feel the need to “make” them different than they choose to be.
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