How does the brainwashing happen?

[Anonymous]

swimordie wrote:

I think in previous generations, even the hard-core version of brainwashing (torture, mental incapacitation) was a part of the mormon culture. The level of emotional abuse, coercion, manipulation, fear-mongering, etc. was at that extreme level. And, no doubt, it still exists in some orthodox homes, whether mormon or otherwise.

Sorry to quote myself, but parsing my words… 😳

I did say “orthodox homes, whether mormon or otherwise.”

And, there were, and in some ways, still are, prominent ideologies that exist which have manifested themselves in horrific ways, like suicide, sexual abuse, drug overdose, hate crimes.

I recognize without hesitation that this would be the exception and happens in other orthodox dogmatic cultures, but, in many of these cases, it is, in fact, the extreme ideology that has been inculcated which precipitates said horrors.

Again, calling what happens generally in the culture “indoctrination” is much more accurate, but that does not preclude those instances when real “brainwashing” has occurred.

fwiw, I’m specifically speaking to instances of extreme emotional and physical abuse by parents on children who, as adults, are unable to respect normal human boundaries because, in their own mind, their horrific actions are justified by the childhood inculcation.

Absolutely, this is the exception. And, generally, could happen in any cultural/societal group.

Sorry for the thread-jack. 😳

[Anonymous]

swimordie wrote:

fwiw, I’m specifically speaking to instances of extreme emotional and physical abuse by parents on children who, as adults, are unable to respect normal human boundaries because, in their own mind, their horrific actions are justified by the childhood inculcation.

I’m going to branch off from this a bit and say that what I see as a result of a particular “indoctrination” is what we see today with the gays/lesbians raised in many LDS homes. The suicide and depression rate is off the charts, and in my experience, as adults they struggle to adapt even if they leave the church. Their sense of self seems to have been damaged in the early years with so many people telling them they are broken that it is extremely difficult to heal.

This appears to be a real hot button in the media as well…it looks like the documentary by Reed Cowan, “8: The Mormon Proposition” will be headlined at the upcoming Sundance Film festival. I’ve seen much of it and it is powerful. It is a painful time for the church regarding gay issues, but I am pleased that they are paying attention to it and making the transition as best as they can.

[Anonymous]

Poppyseed wrote:

So, can you help me decide the difference between training up children in righteous principles and brainwashing?

“Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.” (Prov. 22:6.) And if he departs, he will probably return if he has been brought up in the right way. That is not brainstorming, but is love.

I appreciate Ray clarifying the use of Brainwashing and its true meaning. But if we revert to what many people who don’t parse the meaning so deeply and commonly throw that term around mean, from what I understand, they are expressing the feeling that parents are too forceful in manipulating their kids, or the church teachings manipulating investigators or members.

To this, I agree with Ray that manipulation and influencing will be done, whether by us as parents or by the world surrounding our kids (or substitute “church” and “members” for “parents” and “kids”). Satan or the outside world will be bucking to influence our children, and that must be forcefully met with truth and love. That is what I hope to arm my children with. If done out of love and with the intent that teaching truth will benefit them in later years…that influence is some of the greatest love parents/church can offer.

[Anonymous]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

– English children are taught that Shepherd’s pie is delicious, not vile & nasty.

😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

That actually did make me laugh out loud.

I’m so glad someone was finally brave enough to say this and set the record straight. We all want more honesty in the world.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I think in previous generations, even the hard-core version of brainwashing (torture, mental incapacitation) was a part of the mormon culture. The level of emotional abuse, coercion, manipulation, fear-mongering, etc. was at that extreme level. And, no doubt, it still exists in some orthodox homes, whether mormon or otherwise.

Wow. This statement is alarming to me. I DON’T see this as ever being a part of mormon history and I feel badly for even using the term now. I used it because that was the word the person I referred to used. I knew it was an exaggeration as many of our terms are when describing our emotions. “I had the WORST day EVER at work”. “My friend gossiped about me. My life is OVER!” You see what I mean? And we all understand the exaggeration and move on. I was hoping you all would react that way here. Truthfully, I just wanted to understand more fully what this gentlemen meant even though I could also feel his imbalanced resentments.

My last desire was to place the church in this light. Please, Ray (or other mods), if you need to change my posting in anyway, please feel free to do so.

Quote:

And, I appreciate poppy’s OP because I have many conflicting ideas in my own mind about my kids going to church and hearing one thing, and then coming home and hearing another. When they hear it at church, it’s black and white, all or nothing, “all true”. When they hear it from me, it’s “this is possible”, “there may be more than one way to look at that”, etc.

From what I can tell, the church has been telling us that the gospel should be taught in our homes first. The church or what we receive at services is a supplement to that. If the church made mistakes like in the past hopefully we have learned from that now — at least what comes out of SLC. I think the church is more principle based than ever even though there is still an emphasis on certain behaviors. But I do see the orthodox stuff that places performance above all and misses the forest for the trees.

Having said that…..I worry about it too because I am not sure I can defuse it. I mean all of us have to grapple with “traditions of our fathers which are not correct.”.

And I just wanna understand better what people really mean when they use “brainwashing” in their descriptions of the church. I highly doubt any of them mean literal torture.

[Anonymous]

swimordie wrote:

swimordie wrote:

I think in previous generations, even the hard-core version of brainwashing (torture, mental incapacitation) was a part of the mormon culture. The level of emotional abuse, coercion, manipulation, fear-mongering, etc. was at that extreme level. And, no doubt, it still exists in some orthodox homes, whether mormon or otherwise.

Sorry to quote myself, but parsing my words… 😳

I did say “orthodox homes, whether mormon or otherwise.”

And, there were, and in some ways, still are, prominent ideologies that exist which have manifested themselves in horrific ways, like suicide, sexual abuse, drug overdose, hate crimes.

I recognize without hesitation that this would be the exception and happens in other orthodox dogmatic cultures, but, in many of these cases, it is, in fact, the extreme ideology that has been inculcated which precipitates said horrors.

Again, calling what happens generally in the culture “indoctrination” is much more accurate, but that does not preclude those instances when real “brainwashing” has occurred.

fwiw, I’m specifically speaking to instances of extreme emotional and physical abuse by parents on children who, as adults, are unable to respect normal human boundaries because, in their own mind, their horrific actions are justified by the childhood inculcation.

Absolutely, this is the exception. And, generally, could happen in any cultural/societal group.

Sorry for the thread-jack. 😳

Thanks. I guess I am not talking about the peripheral exceptions. I wanna look at the mainstream and ask the question there. Thanks.

[Anonymous]

Ok….sorry to keep adding here. BUt I think the thing that does separate us from other groups IS our focus on gaining a testimony. If parenting goes from “you Can know it and I can show you how” to “you’d better know it and recite it and behave like you do or you are bad” then maybe that’s the difference.

[Anonymous]

I don”t know enough about the process of brainwashing to speculate on its’ use. but I did have a recent experience that made me think I may have experienced some.

DH and I went to special Christmas Services at another Church.( None being available outside of Utah esp the Conference Center). I wore pants. I knew most of their female members did, It was cold, and I had good reason to know the old building would be drafty. I was right on all accounts. I can not tell you how comfortable I felt . I think it actually increased my ability to recognize and enjoy the message. Of course it was only a few minutes till I started to worry that I might give up the gospel for a creature comfort. I am usually much more fearless than that. We had a wonderful time with the whole experience but dccided that guilty pleasure was a part of the enjoyment.

[Author]

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