How far outside the box, and stay LDS?

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

The consequences to myself and family of just packing up and leaving the church would have been tragic. This website has allowed me to stay LDS, not because of how I feel about church culture and what I know of church doctrine and history – but in spite of it.

Yes, that makes perfect sense to me.

I think it takes time to re-establish your comfort zone with the church once you resolve the “issues.” I think it is common to first, deal with what you believe really happened — or become comfortable with the possibility that it is different than what you previously believed — then re-assess what the church means to you, and how comfortable you are in the church with your new beliefs. Many factors enter in…the family, your feelings when being involved…are they feelings of anger, or do you feel spiritual when actively involved?

If angry, can you change your attitude to make it better? That may be possible…and important, if your family has conditional issues (unfortunately).

[Anonymous]

Euhemerus wrote:

Hope some of that rambling means something to someone. 🙄 🙄 😆

Love it…thanks Euhemerus! (that whole probability thing took me back to grad school for a minute… 😆 )

[Anonymous]

Brian Johnston wrote:

This could be spiritual ideas or just plain social motivations. So you could not believe a single thing about the Church, but want to hang out with Mormons and be sort of LDS in that regard. Some of it will rub off on you. You will be a cultural Mormon at a minimum.

This reminds me of a member in a ward on my mission to Japan. She was extremely active, always at the activities, really enjoyed herself there…but when asked to bare her testimony, she always refused, saying she wasn’t sure she really believed the JS story.

At the time I thought it was really weird. Now I understand.

Quote:

I know several people, that I am personally close to, that have left the Church. They are no longer members and do not attend. Yet they will sometimes admit that they still have it in them on some level. It still informs their world view in some ways

I SOOO relate!

[Anonymous]

If the box is your clan, your tribe, your culture, then I BELIEVE you can stay LDS. In real life, I’m a little bit claustrophobic. I admit it. I don’t much like elevators, airplanes, stake conferences (I’m OK at conference, but need to be on the end of the row, in the back, near an exit… my comfort zone). The same with LDS, I’m borderline, end of row, at the back, near an exit. It works for me. I can also (being on the edge/in the hedge), bring a book, Ipod, something to do, if I feel the need to suddenly stand/address the speaker, when I’m conflicted with his vision of humanity and the world. I always remember fresh air & blue skies await outside the chapel door… plus a unopened diet coke in the beverage holder of my beloved Dodge truck. Shalom.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Can you believe the BoM is fiction, and stay LDS? Or even the Bible?

My take on this is that you’d have to think that they were at least inspired fiction.

I’ve always had a problem with taking the Bible as a single work. It’s definitely not. The stuff in it is of different quality, styles, and some of the sections have far more historical weight than others. In the case of Psalms, Proverbs or the visions of Daniel & Ezekiel, it is almost irrelevant to talk about fiction, because the first is a book of songs and poems, which are artworks, not always based around an event, the second is a collection of sayings, and the third and fourth are supposed to be spiritual experiences rather than tangible events.

The clan/tribe stuff might work for people raised in the church, or living in an area where the LDS is fairly mainstream, but I’m yet to be convinced of it in a place like this where the LDS are quite exotic, especially as a convert.

[Anonymous]

Rix wrote:

…how much can you “disbelieve” and still be comfortable staying LDS? For example, can you believe Joseph may not have physically done all the things that are claimed in the JS story…and stay LDS?

Can you believe the BoM is fiction, and stay LDS? Or even the Bible?

Can you consider God to be either non-existent, or not a perfected human as most Mormons believe (ie, a guiding force, or energy…but not a “person”), and stay LDS?

…I would like to know how far outside the box YOU think one can be, and still stay LDS…

In my opinion, Church members can easily be completely outside the box as far as not believing at all in the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, the Bible, or even God and still be more comfortable about staying LDS than they are with any realistic alternatives. I don’t agree at all with many ex-Mormons who seem to think any members that don’t believe in everything the Church teaches should automatically feel obligated to leave the Church and make a big stink about it.

Consider the consequences, sometimes getting along with people is more important than being right (or assuming that you are right). Trying to burst people’s bubble is just as likely to make them mad at you rather than ever convincing them to agree with your opinion in many cases. Personally, I think many active Mormons are not even very familiar with the actual doctrines and history of the Church to begin with and for many it is mostly just a social club or cultural tradition where they simply feel comfortable around other Mormons and don’t really care that much about how exactly we got to this point.

[Anonymous]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

Rix wrote:

…how much can you “disbelieve” and still be comfortable staying LDS? For example, can you believe Joseph may not have physically done all the things that are claimed in the JS story…and stay LDS?

Can you believe the BoM is fiction, and stay LDS? Or even the Bible?

Can you consider God to be either non-existent, or not a perfected human as most Mormons believe (ie, a guiding force, or energy…but not a “person”), and stay LDS?

…I would like to know how far outside the box YOU think one can be, and still stay LDS…

In my opinion, Church members can easily be completely outside the box as far as not believing at all in the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, the Bible, or even God and still be more comfortable about staying LDS than they are with any realistic alternatives. I don’t agree at all with many ex-Mormons who seem to think any members that don’t believe in everything the Church teaches should automatically feel obligated to leave the Church and make a big stink about it.

Consider the consequences, sometimes getting along with people is more important than being right (or assuming that you are right). Trying to burst people’s bubble is just as likely to make them mad at you rather than ever convincing them to agree with your opinion in many cases. Personally, I think many active Mormons are not even very familiar with the actual doctrines and history of the Church to begin with and for many it is mostly just a social club or cultural tradition where they simply feel comfortable around other Mormons and don’t really care that much about how exactly we got to this point.

I agree that for the most part, members stay because of the social or cultural environment…for many that’s all they know. But I don’t think that it is so easy for people. Particularly over a long period of time and when more things are discovered about the church that may be difficult to rationalize or accept. Eventually (for many) the cognitive dissonance begins to take it’s toll. Ultimately, the comfortable feeling you speak of becomes not so comfortable. A person can actually feel quite miserable juggeling and pretending when they are afraid to walk in their truth.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

A person can actually feel quite miserable juggeling and pretending when they are afraid to walk in their truth.

Hence, this site was born. Glad to have you here. I think you’ll find you aren’t as much of a misfit here as you are elsewhere.

[Anonymous]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

In my opinion, Church members can easily be completely outside the box as far as not believing at all in the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, the Bible, or even God and still be more comfortable about staying LDS than they are with any realistic alternatives. I don’t agree at all with many ex-Mormons who seem to think any members that don’t believe in everything the Church teaches should automatically feel obligated to leave the Church and make a big stink about it.

Consider the consequences, sometimes getting along with people is more important than being right (or assuming that you are right). Trying to burst people’s bubble is just as likely to make them mad at you rather than ever convincing them to agree with your opinion in many cases. Personally, I think many active Mormons are not even very familiar with the actual doctrines and history of the Church to begin with and for many it is mostly just a social club or cultural tradition where they simply feel comfortable around other Mormons and don’t really care that much about how exactly we got to this point.

I like this! I think there is a personality type that would (as Dr. Phil says) rather be right than happy. In fact, many “exmos” I know are angry at the lies they’ve been told,” and stay in their bitterness forever! I see the initial anger as natural, but like anything else that we get angry about…it’s usually helpful to learn where the anger comes from, then change our attitude about it. Those that stay in their anger believe the other “party” must change for them to become happy.

Good luck with that!

[Anonymous]

misfit7 wrote:

I agree that for the most part, members stay because of the social or cultural environment…for many that’s all they know. But I don’t think that it is so easy for people. Particularly over a long period of time and when more things are discovered about the church that may be difficult to rationalize or accept. Eventually (for many) the cognitive dissonance begins to take it’s toll. Ultimately, the comfortable feeling you speak of becomes not so comfortable. A person can actually feel quite miserable juggeling and pretending when they are afraid to walk in their truth.

Yup!

[Anonymous]

misfit7 wrote:

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

In my opinion, Church members can easily be completely outside the box as far as not believing at all in the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, the Bible, or even God and still be more comfortable about staying LDS than they are with any realistic alternatives. I don’t agree at all with many ex-Mormons who seem to think any members that don’t believe in everything the Church teaches should automatically feel obligated to leave the Church and make a big stink about it.

I agree that for the most part, members stay because of the social or cultural environment…for many that’s all they know. But I don’t think that it is so easy for people. Particularly over a long period of time and when more things are discovered about the church that may be difficult to rationalize or accept. Eventually (for many) the cognitive dissonance begins to take it’s toll. Ultimately, the comfortable feeling you speak of becomes not so comfortable. A person can actually feel quite miserable juggeling and pretending when they are afraid to walk in their truth.

I’m not saying it is easy to keep quiet or even pretend to believe when you don’t, what I meant to say is that this is sometimes relatively easy compared to some truly undesirable alternatives like being shunned and disrespected by family and friends or possibly even divorce. Beyond selfish thinking some non-believing members may not want to upset other members that are happy with the Church if they don’t have to. As far as I’m concerned other members can question the Church when and if they feel ready to take that step on their own.

Thomas Stuart Ferguson spent a lot of time and money doing archaeological digs looking for Book of Mormon evidence but eventually gave up on this idea after the Book of Abraham papyrus fragments the Church owns were translated in 1967. However, rather than leaving the Church or writing anti-Mormon propaganda, he mostly kept quiet about his loss of faith. Personally I think this kind of thing will only increase now that the internet is so popular.

[Anonymous]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

misfit7 wrote:

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

In my opinion, Church members can easily be completely outside the box as far as not believing at all in the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, the Bible, or even God and still be more comfortable about staying LDS than they are with any realistic alternatives. I don’t agree at all with many ex-Mormons who seem to think any members that don’t believe in everything the Church teaches should automatically feel obligated to leave the Church and make a big stink about it.

I agree that for the most part, members stay because of the social or cultural environment…for many that’s all they know. But I don’t think that it is so easy for people. Particularly over a long period of time and when more things are discovered about the church that may be difficult to rationalize or accept. Eventually (for many) the cognitive dissonance begins to take it’s toll. Ultimately, the comfortable feeling you speak of becomes not so comfortable. A person can actually feel quite miserable juggeling and pretending when they are afraid to walk in their truth.

I’m not saying it is easy to keep quiet or even pretend to believe when you don’t, what I meant to say is that this is sometimes relatively easy compared to some truly undesirable alternatives like being shunned and disrespected by family and friends or possibly even divorce. Beyond selfish thinking some non-believing members may not want to upset other members that are happy with the Church if they don’t have to. As far as I’m concerned other members can question the Church when and if they feel ready to take that step on their own.

Thomas Stuart Ferguson spent a lot of time and money doing archaeological digs looking for Book of Mormon evidence but eventually gave up on this idea after the Book of Abraham papyrus fragments the Church owns were translated in 1967. However, rather than leaving the Church or writing anti-Mormon propaganda, he mostly kept quiet about his loss of faith. Personally I think this kind of thing will only increase now that the internet is so popular.

Unfortunately the pretending or keeping it to yourself is the only alternative. You are right. It is sad to me however, that this culture places the CUB (Closet Un-Believer) in that position. I also feel that it is sad that it is considered “selfish” to be honest and be able to live your own truth.

You know, when it comes right down to it, each one of us are in charge of our own spiritual path be it in or out of the LDS Church. Sometimes as a Mormon, I think we feel so responsible for our spouse, our children, everybody else’s testimony and that to me is quite co-dependent. Maybe we feel that way because of all of those YW lessons, RS lessons in years past that sort of taught us that we were (particularly us moms). True ‘Love Without Conditions’ allows us to follow our own journey without guilt or worry of estrangement.

My point is that for some people and many that I personally know, the ‘keeping it to oneself’ can take its toll especially after years of doing it. But many people do and I guess as Ray pointed out, that is precisely what this Forum does. Help people figure out how to stay, while juggeling the thoughts, testimony challenges, new info about the Church that troubles us.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Unfortunately the pretending or keeping it to yourself is the only alternative.

Only for a while, misfit. Only for a while. That, too, shall pass.

I don’t keep things to myself very often. I’ve just learned how to share things, and when to share things, in a way that can be effective – and a BIG part of that is realizing that this really is MY journey, and nobody else needs to walk MY journey. They are busy trying to walk their own, and who am I to shove them callously from a path that works for them or drop a burden on them that will knock them down or crush them? Is that really what love is about – walking my own path whie throwing rocks at everyone who is walking another one?

I’m sure that’s not what you meant, but it’s important to realize that you aren’t a lone individual. You are a child, a spouse, probably a sibling, a friend, a member of multiple communities – and it’s not all about you anymore. There is a level of spiritual maturity that only can come when we face and embrace the fact that we really aren’t just individuals – here to whatever we want to do. We are part of a family – and, in the ultimate construct (whether literal or figurative), that family includes everyone who ever has lived.

What I do impacts others – and there simply is no way around that. None. None at all. My decisions impact others. That just is. I can fight it, or I can accept it, but I can’t beat it – and once I accept it, what remains is to figure out how to share my own heterodoxy in a way that has a snowball’s chance in Hell of helping. It’s NOT about pretending or keeping it to myself now, but it might be for you now.

We aren’t here to advocate staying miserable in the LDS Church. That’s not our mission. Each of the admins and moderators here has found a way to “stay LDS” and actually enjoy it – to be at peace – to WANT to do it. I’m sure we are at various levels in that journey, still, but that’s the ultimate goal – peace and joy and contentment.

We don’t “testify” much here, but I feel like I can say that I “know” it’s possible for someone to think there won’t be sunlight in the Church and then, through patience and personal growth and intentional effort, find that sunlight again – or for the first time. I can’t say it’s possible for everyone, since I have no control over others – but I certainly can say it’s possible. That much I know, because I’ve experienced it. Nothing on the outside changed, necessarily – but my vision cleared a bit and I was able to see that I had the ability to part the clouds, calm the storm and see the light again.

Some would chalk that up to divinity; some would chalk it up to mental gymnastics; some would chalk it up to a believing spirit; some would chalk it up to wishful thinking. I really don’t care how anyone else classifies it; I only care that it is.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

They are busy trying to walk their own, and who am I to shove them callously from a path that works for them or drop a burden on them that will knock them down or crush them? Is that really what love is about – walking my own path whie throwing rocks at everyone who is walking another one?

I know this was leading up to your later point Ray, but I want to say that this is KEY, IMO. There is no reason for any of us to “stay LDS,” or do anything religious in nature unless it does bring us closer to “God,” Spirit,” or as many call it, “Oneness.” For some, it is best in the LDS tradition…others possibly not.

My sense is that you (Ray) and many others here have found your spiritual journey is very peaceful in the LDS church. That confidence and experience works well for you. But I also see many others quite conflicted and confused when the “church” paradigm seems to contradict the core mission of “love for the fellow men.” The church position on gay rights/women’s rights, for example…maybe racial equality a few decades ago, seemed (seems) to be out of alignment with the core teaching of love.

So while you have the ability to separate members’ (and even leaders’) opinions from core doctrines, others are at a level where they cannot yet resolve that. I admire those that can, and have hope that others will be able to separate cultural opinions from core, unchanging doctrines that never need to change…and recognize that the church is made up of imperfect humans — doing the best they can.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

Quote:

Unfortunately the pretending or keeping it to yourself is the only alternative.

Only for a while, misfit. Only for a while. That, too, shall pass.

I don’t keep things to myself very often. I’ve just learned how to share things, and when to share things, in a way that can be effective – and a BIG part of that is realizing that this really is MY journey, and nobody else needs to walk MY journey. They are busy trying to walk their own, and who am I to shove them callously from a path that works for them or drop a burden on them that will knock them down or crush them? Is that really what love is about – walking my own path whie throwing rocks at everyone who is walking another one?

I’m sure that’s not what you meant, but it’s important to realize that you aren’t a lone individual. You are a child, a spouse, probably a sibling, a friend, a member of multiple communities – and it’s not all about you anymore. There is a level of spiritual maturity that only can come when we face and embrace the fact that we really aren’t just individuals – here to whatever we want to do. We are part of a family – and, in the ultimate construct (whether literal or figurative), that family includes everyone who ever has lived.

What I do impacts others – and there simply is no way around that. None. None at all. My decisions impact others. That just is. I can fight it, or I can accept it, but I can’t beat it – and once I accept it, what remains is to figure out how to share my own heterodoxy in a way that has a snowball’s chance in Hell of helping. It’s NOT about pretending or keeping it to myself now, but it might be for you now.

We aren’t here to advocate staying miserable in the LDS Church. That’s not our mission. Each of the admins and moderators here has found a way to “stay LDS” and actually enjoy it – to be at peace – to WANT to do it. I’m sure we are at various levels in that journey, still, but that’s the ultimate goal – peace and joy and contentment.

We don’t “testify” much here, but I feel like I can say that I “know” it’s possible for someone to think there won’t be sunlight in the Church and then, through patience and personal growth and intentional effort, find that sunlight again – or for the first time. I can’t say it’s possible for everyone, since I have no control over others – but I certainly can say it’s possible. That much I know, because I’ve experienced it. Nothing on the outside changed, necessarily – but my vision cleared a bit and I was able to see that I had the ability to part the clouds, calm the storm and see the light again.

Some would chalk that up to divinity; some would chalk it up to mental gymnastics; some would chalk it up to a believing spirit; some would chalk it up to wishful thinking. I really don’t care how anyone else classifies it; I only care that it is.

Thanks for your response, Ray. I can see that you are the perfect person to be a moderator on this Forum. I’m sure it is helpful to many that are trying to figure out how to do the mental gymnastics or just plain figure out what their belief really is. You are an example that given the right circumstances, one can stay active if one chooses to do so.

Fortunately for me, I don’t have to pretend. I don’t broadcast my belief for all of Happy Valley to hear (I’m a born and raised Ut. County gal) but I can live in my truth comfortably. I don’t “throw rocks” at anyone that walks a different path at all. I always taught my Primary kids to truly love and accept friends of other religions with respect and no judgement, just as I teach my son to love and respect his friends that are LDS, Evangelical, Catholic, etc.

I probably should have written that “Unfortunately the pretending or keeping it to yourself is ‘sometimes‘ the only alternative”. It is very disheartening to me when that is the only option for fear of ostracism from family and friends. Not only is it fear of that for your own self, but for your children and how they will be perceived with an ‘apostate’ parent. Particularly in Utah County where the pressure is so strong. Pressure to ‘appear’ as the perfect, righteous family.

I just feel that fear of truth destroys the soul. Having to constantly hold your feelings and thoughts/questions in, hurts the heart. This forum provides that safe place for the Questioning. That’s a very good thing! (not to get all Martha Stewart-like on ya )

[Author]

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