How far outside the box, and stay LDS?

[Anonymous]

Ella Menno wrote:

I suppose we would have to define the box, no? If that is true then the box would have millions of differing definitions, and that’s okay.

Yes, I suppose we could say that the box is subject to interpretation, right? Personally, and I’m sure for most participating here, the box would be limitless. Now, for a Mormon, that might be hard to wrap your head around!

[Anonymous]

If the box is the letter of the law, I think the “spirit of the law” is the circle I draw around the box..which includes the box but goes much further as my free-will and desire for spirituality needs more room to grow and more flexible boundaries.

[Anonymous]

“How far outside the box”

I just came across this thought from Have a Little Faith by Mitch Album, that perhaps speaks to this very question.

Quote:

That is the whole point of our time: Not the conclusion, but the search, the study, the journey to belief. You can’t fit the Lord in a box. All you can do is gather stories, tradition, wisdom, and in time you needn’t lower the shelf; God is already nearer to thee.

[Anonymous]

or in you – which is central to Mormonism in a very real way. Freeing you to become God . . . that’s what it’s all about, imo. (“and the truth shall make you free”)

[Anonymous]

Rix wrote:

I think there is a personality type that would (as Dr. Phil says) rather be right than happy. In fact, many “exmos” I know are angry at the lies they’ve been told,” and stay in their bitterness forever! I see the initial anger as natural, but like anything else that we get angry about…it’s usually helpful to learn where the anger comes from, then change our attitude about it. Those that stay in their anger believe the other “party” must change for them to become happy.

Good luck with that!

😆 Thanks, I needed to laugh!

So many good comments. A few that stood out to me: Flowerdrop & cwald felt like a phonies. I’ve felt that way too, but if a phony is someone who pretends to be something that they’re not – that could go visa versa for TBM’s – just depends on what phony is compared against. Cwald mentioned not just sitting back & not say anything. I’m pretty vocal too, but as Ray has, maybe I’ll eventually (hopefully before I get kicked out!) be able to express my thoughts more carefully & even with inspiration. The analogy of anti-depressents was interesting. Personally, I think they’re over prescribed & do more harm than good – but that’s another topic. Just the belief in false doctrine may help, but it could also hurt – when it comes to shame & judgment that prevents loving ourselves & others.

Carl Jung said, “The judgement of the intellect is only part of the truth.” I believe that God (& our essence) is love & that religion (especially the LDS church) can be a great tool for increasing our capacity to love…to feel & serve & learn.

I love this about the spirit/meaning:

Heber13 wrote:

If the box is the letter of the law, I think the “spirit of the law” is the circle I draw around the box..which includes the box but goes much further as my free-will and desire for spirituality needs more room to grow and more flexible boundaries.

We learn #s, & addition before calculus – as we learn everything – in stages. My perspective has changed a lot & as mentioned, we’re all on our own spiritual journeys. I hope to be able to see more of the same symbolism with new spiritual perspective & feeling & I hope especially, to learn to love better. So far, my lds background has served as a good spring board, & who knows, maybe I won’t always have to be so careful who sees me bouncing around on my spring board!

[Anonymous]

Thanks Featherina! I love the comments you made. I think Swim would agree that it is huge that you are considering “maybe I won’t always have to be so careful who sees me bouncing around on my spring board!” I love that!

I’m so happy to see many say that, in different ways, their “box” is much larger than maybe it previously was…for different reasons. I see that as progress. I think many use religion as a reason/justification for establishing their own box…while it seems to me that “God” wants us to keep breaking through the walls of the box.

I see that here, and I love it!

[Anonymous]

Euhemerus wrote:

I think there can be SEVERE harm done by intentionally leading people to believe that which is not true (or at least believed unlikely to be true according to our best knowledge). Is that something that should be done, especially to someone already suffering from depression? In the case of those BIC in the church, the situation is different. They are raised from birth to believe the claims of the church. There wasn’t any real misleading or lack of honesty. For converts, I confess I have my own, rather critical views of the way missionary work is conducted (though I don’t believe missionaries are intentionally misleading people either).

Interesting thoughts!

“… it is better to point some in the right direction at the risk of deluding others,

than settling for helping no one at all.”

— Alan Chapman

So what if we attempt to teach the truth, but for some reason we are misunderstood? I once felt a bit betrayed by God when He told me something that I then misunderstood. Finally after many years, I realized my mistake and resolved the dilemma it had produced. As I looked back on my misunderstanding and what it had caused, I could see that in real terms I had lost nothing of real value in the process. It was all good.

HiJolly

[Anonymous]

HiJolly wrote:

So what if we attempt to teach the truth, but for some reason we are misunderstood? I once felt a bit betrayed by God when He told me something that I then misunderstood. Finally after many years, I realized my mistake and resolved the dilemma it had produced. As I looked back on my misunderstanding and what it had caused, I could see that in real terms I had lost nothing of real value in the process. It was all good.

HiJolly

I think this has much more meaning than I first realized when I read it. If I slightly alter the process to say that I thought, or perceived that God told me something…and I didn’t understand the meaning, or purpose at the time…but later did — then realized “it was all good” in the end, I think we can apply that to a LOT of things.

I look at it in my life today as the way I “fought” the church when I discovered the white-washings of the history. I had a session with a therapist that I told my issues, and he said a few things that have changed my attitude. He first said, “so what church hasn’t white-washed their history to look good to its members?” Of course, I couldn’t think of any….

Then he said, “looking at the LDS church today, does it do more damage, or good, to society? After I said all the damaging things I perceived it had been doing, I realized the scales tipped heavily to the good side.

That all helped me a lot!

[Anonymous]

Rix wrote:

HiJolly wrote:

So what if we attempt to teach the truth, but for some reason we are misunderstood? I once felt a bit betrayed by God when He told me something that I then misunderstood. Finally after many years, I realized my mistake and resolved the dilemma it had produced. As I looked back on my misunderstanding and what it had caused, I could see that in real terms I had lost nothing of real value in the process. It was all good.

HiJolly

I think this has much more meaning than I first realized when I read it. If I slightly alter the process to say that I thought, or perceived that God told me something…and I didn’t understand the meaning, or purpose at the time…but later did — then realized “it was all good” in the end, I think we can apply that to a LOT of things.

I look at it in my life today as the way I “fought” the church when I discovered the white-washings of the history. I had a session with a therapist that I told my issues, and he said a few things that have changed my attitude. He first said, “so what church hasn’t white-washed their history to look good to its members?” Of course, I couldn’t think of any….

Then he said, “looking at the LDS church today, does it do more damage, or good, to society? After I said all the damaging things I perceived it had been doing, I realized the scales tipped heavily to the good side.

That all helped me a lot!

I would agree with you mostly except that the LDS church is relatively new/young. Most religions that white-wash their history as you describe are centuries old where the memory and stories of their history has faded and become sort of ‘fairy-tale-like’.

I agree that the LDS church does a lot of good in society. I wonder however, does it really do a lot of good or does it cause more damage to individual families that struggle with the Cog-Dis in their lives? What about the high rate of drug abuse among ‘good LDS’ kids in Happy Valley?

I don’t know. These are things that I think about as I wonder how far out of the ‘box’ I can be and be an active member.

[Anonymous]

misfit7, can you give us a link to something that talks about high drug abuse rates among LDS kids in Utah Valley. I’ve never heard anything about that.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

misfit7, can you give us a link to something that talks about high drug abuse rates among LDS kids in Utah Valley. I’ve never heard anything about that.

You “mission-field Mormons” are so out of it! 😆 (and I’m sure there are MAJOR advantages of that…).

There have been a lot of media reports over the last few years here of the high prescription drug abuse rates in Utah…apparently highest in (southern) Utah County (and Utah County is 70-80% LDS). You can imagine the common reasoning about it — mormons don’t drink or smoke, so they find their “acceptable release” with Rx medicines. I just googled your question and found a few references:

“Prescription Pain Reliever Target Population

[Please note: we calculated each city’s rate per 100,000 (e.g. the rate of deaths, ER visits, etc. per 100,000 city residents) so we could compare cities to each other.] Data revealed south Utah County (defined as cities south of Provo) as the area most impacted by prescription pain reliever abuse. “South county cities have the most ER visits, treatment admissions, overdose deaths, shipments of prescription pain relievers into their communities, and youth in south county abuse prescription pain relievers at slightly higher rates,” said Nordfelt. “Prescription pain relievers appear more available in the south county possibly leading to higher use rates, higher mortality rates and the highest ER visits across Utah County.”

(from http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700022521/Utah-County-wants-residents-to-clean-out-medicine-cabinets.html)

A few years ago there was a documentary that showed the common process in Utah County called “Happy Valley.” Ron Williams did a great job with it, and I highly suggest it for those interested in learning about the great divide between often naive and disconnected parents from their teenage kids. In the late 90s/early 2000s, I was a drug/alcohol counselor here in Utah. I can tell you there is a consistent pattern in very letter of the law mormon parents and their teenagers…and the opiate overdoses are among the highest in the nation. Very sad, and hard to teach the parents how to deal with the problem. Ron is making a dent by at least starting the discussion here….

😥

[Anonymous]

misfit7 wrote:

I would agree with you mostly except that the LDS church is relatively new/young. Most religions that white-wash their history as you describe are centuries old where the memory and stories of their history has faded and become sort of ‘fairy-tale-like’.

Good point. For some reason we don’t seem to hold the centuries-old religions to the same standards that we do the new ones. I suppose we see them more as “traditional” than the new ones. I mean, how often do you here people ask “is the Roman Catholic Church the one and only true church on earth?” It seems that’s not even the point…it’s what generations of families have been, and is seen as “just what we do…” I’m sure Mormonism is getting that way, but the church is still wet behind the ears, and needs to prove itself to society.

Quote:

I agree that the LDS church does a lot of good in society. I wonder however, does it really do a lot of good or does it cause more damage to individual families that struggle with the Cog-Dis in their lives? What about the high rate of drug abuse among ‘good LDS’ kids in Happy Valley?

I don’t know. These are things that I think about as I wonder how far out of the ‘box’ I can be and be an active member

I agree that the damage is most prevalent in families that are more “iron-rod” like. When parents teach the children “this is the only way you should live,” there is bound to be cog-dis in kids that have a different life experience than the parents — then they feel unaccepted and unloved. This is often the beginning of substance abuse and depression, in my experience. Of course we see it as a “mormon” thing, but I’m sure you get the same result in all orthodox/dogmatic religious traditions too.

[Anonymous]

I’m not disputing prescription drug abuse in Utah, but the article says nothing about how big the difference is between Utah and other states – or in Utah County. After all, it says “one of the highest” state rates, and it says Utah County is “slightly higher” than other counties.

Given the fact that all kinds of prescription drug use is higher in the western states than anywhere else generally, and given that in the studies I’ve seen Mormons generally are not prone to avoid legal prescription drugs (especially since they would be an acceptable alternative to self-medication through alcohol or illegal substances), it wouldn’t surprise me a bit if the overall usage was higher than the national average – and if the rate among teens was higher, as well, given the availability.

Again, that’s just a gut reaction, but I need to see the actual percentages, ideally side-by-side with illegal drug and alcohol rates, to make any statement about overall drug use rates.

I literally have no time right now, so if someone can find anything about that, I’d appreciate a link.

Anyway, that’s not the focus of this post, so I’ll drop it.

[Anonymous]

Rix wrote:

Old-Timer wrote:

misfit7, can you give us a link to something that talks about high drug abuse rates among LDS kids in Utah Valley. I’ve never heard anything about that.

You “mission-field Mormons” are so out of it! 😆 (and I’m sure there are MAJOR advantages of that…).

There have been a lot of media reports over the last few years here of the high prescription drug abuse rates in Utah…apparently highest in (southern) Utah County (and Utah County is 70-80% LDS). You can imagine the common reasoning about it — mormons don’t drink or smoke, so they find their “acceptable release” with Rx medicines. I just googled your question and found a few references:

“Prescription Pain Reliever Target Population

[Please note: we calculated each city’s rate per 100,000 (e.g. the rate of deaths, ER visits, etc. per 100,000 city residents) so we could compare cities to each other.] Data revealed south Utah County (defined as cities south of Provo) as the area most impacted by prescription pain reliever abuse. “South county cities have the most ER visits, treatment admissions, overdose deaths, shipments of prescription pain relievers into their communities, and youth in south county abuse prescription pain relievers at slightly higher rates,” said Nordfelt. “Prescription pain relievers appear more available in the south county possibly leading to higher use rates, higher mortality rates and the highest ER visits across Utah County.”

(from http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700022521/Utah-County-wants-residents-to-clean-out-medicine-cabinets.html)

A few years ago there was a documentary that showed the common process in Utah County called “Happy Valley.” Ron Williams did a great job with it, and I highly suggest it for those interested in learning about the great divide between often naive and disconnected parents from their teenage kids. In the late 90s/early 2000s, I was a drug/alcohol counselor here in Utah. I can tell you there is a consistent pattern in very letter of the law mormon parents and their teenagers…and the opiate overdoses are among the highest in the nation. Very sad, and hard to teach the parents how to deal with the problem. Ron is making a dent by at least starting the discussion here….

😥

Rix, thanks for the reference as I didn’t have one when I posted earlier.

Ray, I actually speak from experience and I’m surprised that you have heard nothing about the drug problem that seems to be running rampant with the Youth in Utah County and actually, all over our great State. There is hardly a family that I know of who hasn’t been affected by addiction in some way. Be it a child/neighbor/ward member/child’s friend…it is truly epidemic and very scary. My daughter (age 27) and I were talking about the friends that she had, who had died from an overdose. We are talking about right smack in the middle of Orem-Mormon-Utah. She immediately could count 12….that was 3 years ago. Several have died or are fighting the addiction since then. I’m not talking about the sleazy,way-ward kids, I’m talking about “Dad’s in the Bishopric”, or “Mom’s YW President” kids. The son of my best friend, died 2 yrs. ago from an opiate overdose. She was just released as Primary Pres.

Am I saying I blame the Church? Of course not. But it seems that there are a lot of parents that are being quite ‘Ostrich-like’. Thinking that all they have to do is go to the Bishop, repent, read the scriptures and say their prayers and everything will be fixed is extremely naive’.

I don’t mean to get off-topic here and hi-jack a thread. This is a topic I am very passionate about. Perhaps another thread could be started where the experts like Rix and I’m sure others, can elaborate.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, split off the drug use topic so this doesn’t go too far off track, if anyone is motivated enough to start one.

[Author]

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