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How have you addressed and/or overcome issues you have encountered or concerns you have had? Did you somehow accept the orthodox LDS view or find another way? My issues had to do with the people and behavior of leaders in the church. I dealt with it in these ways: 1. Lowered my expectations of what I expect from church members and leaders.
2. Put boundaries on my service, sometimes flying in the face of “never say no to a calling” and “never ask to be released”.
3. Looked really hard at what cultural/gospel norms I find necessary, and ones that I should interpret more liberally or disregard.
4. Stopped viewing the church as a fully divinely organization, and now view as more temporal than spiritual — the way I think it tends to behave. Still something I have a testimony of and believe I should belong to, but with moderation.
5. Learned to keep unorthodox ideas to myself.
6. Use time as a teacher on Sunday to make people think about church assumptions and time honored cultural beliefs, without necessarily challenging them beyond the questions I ask.
7. Put myself on my own clock, letting my own perceptions/inspiration/heart act as a filter for the things one hears over the pulpit. Just because a leader says he was inspired that I should do something doesn’t mean it’s inspired until I believe it too.
8. Fulfill my personal goals for service/fulfilment in a variety of ways, more outside the church than inside.
9. Even with objectionable lesson material, I work hard to find new angles on it, or aspects I can agree with that touch on the lesson, or on unorthodox talks by GA’s that I can talk about. Strange, but class attendees like it because I’m teaching different ideas, apparently consistent with the gospel but in new ways or from a new perspective.
10. Been reading about healing Church hurt lately which has led me to some real insights — from a non-LDS author.
I started searching on websites in 2008, and came to this website in 2009. I don’t see how I can accept the LDS orthodox view any more, but I have found ways that I can peacefully navigate the orthodox views with new views and make it work for me.
During my journey I’ve gone through many phases, and over time, all phases have helped me. I’ve been angry, I’ve tried to doubt, as far as possible, all things including God. I’ve investigate hard doctrines and historical accounts. I’ve been tired of dealing with it, I’ve stopped attending church, I’ve been fascinated at other religions and philosophies. I’ve been scared for my future and my children. I’ve been worried what my loved ones think of me, and I’ve tried to not get preoccupied with what others think of me.
I think each phase taught me something.
I currently am a temple recommend holding, believing, active member of my ward. I am not the same believer I was 5 years ago. And I’m comfortable with that.
I’ve recommended it in many other threads, but you may enjoy reading Wendy Ulrich’s FAIR speech which has inspired me:
http://www.fairlds.org/fair-conferences/2005-fair-conference/2005-believest-thou-faith-cognitive-dissonance-and-the-psychology-of-religious-experience ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.fairlds.org/fair-conferences/2005-fair-conference/2005-believest-thou-faith-cognitive-dissonance-and-the-psychology-of-religious-experience If you are asking if I’ve been able to work through my crisis issues, I’d say mostly I have. But I have more to work through.
I find it cool in this life we are never “done”. We keep working our whole lives to better understand Christ and the atonement. And we get to choose who we want to be, to have peace in our days.
I am, was TBM in whatever that means. I don’t know anymore and honestly I really don’t like putting people into boxes so I figured why put myself into a box. I know what I know, believe what I believe and seek the truth in all things. So much so that even after I find truth I am still open to more truth in things that can be proven even if it was “case settled” before. I see darkly so I’m always open to new evidence or truth where it can be found.
There is a lot of evidence for and against the church. With almost everything lack fully conclusive evidence.
This is where faith comes in. I decided to put my faith in any teaching that produces good works.
And accept the truth I already know and except my experinces and not try to fight it in my mind.
For me personally this mans testimony touched me so much.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0epOwqyuBk&feature=youtube_gdata_player ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0epOwqyuBk&feature=youtube_gdata_player I don’t know him and never met him but I wish I did.
His answers are sincere and genuine and he doesn’t try to fight what he learned as a scientist.
I wish the ” my mame is____ and I’m a Mormon videos were a lot more like this instead of very PR like.
With regaurd to church history and SE teachings, I worked it out by saying to myself I honestly don’t know.
I may thought I knew but in reality I don’t and that’s what faith is for.
I accept the fact I don’t know, and all the little details about what we believe really don’t actually matter to me.
It’s the people like William Bradshaw that make me proud(pleased) to be a Mormon and stake my claim to the tribe.
What god looks like, where we reside in the afterlife, Wow, what we wear etc. is all semantics to me when all I really want to do is “love god with all my heart might mind and streanght and love thy fellow neighbor as myself.
I’ll talk about and try to learn everyting I can. But at the end of the day it doesn’t matter to me. Judy those things.
Life gets incredibly complacated and I just try to keep it simple.
I allow myself to believe whatever I come to believe and try to live according to the dictates of my own conscience. I don’t try to force or convince others to believe as I believe. I try to help them figure out what they personally believe and then live according to the dictates of their own consciences.
I try to study and understand every conceivable view about something – to sort through them as carefully and thoughtfully as I can and then craft my own understanding.
I allow myself and others to change their minds about anything – to continue to believe and live according to the dictates of our own consciences.
I share what works for me, but I do so without any expectation or requirement that others agree and/or comply.
If I have to err, and I know I will err, I try always to err on the side of love.
SilentDawning wrote:My issues had to do with the people and behavior of leaders in the church. I dealt with it in these ways:
1. Lowered my expectations of what I expect from church members and leaders.
2. Put boundaries on my service, sometimes flying in the face of “never say no to a calling” and “never ask to be released”.
Thanks for your post, SilentDawning. I like what you say in #1. I am lucky because I’ve had only excellent men as bishops. However, I had lousy young men leaders. I guess I’ve never expected leaders to be much better than the average person. Many of them really are average members who received a calling. I think Joseph Smith saw himself as having average righteousness even though he had above average confidence and ambition.Regarding #2, I was once in an elders quorum presidency and we discussed callings for a secretary and other EQ functions, and we were constantly changing home teaching assignments. I found it interesting how we approached it. We would use out minds to consider who might be a good fit and how it would work practically. If we didn’t feel reservations about it, we would go with it. Is “never say no to a calling” really an official doctrine or position at all?
Nephite wrote:If we didn’t feel reservations about it, we would go with it. Is “never say no to a calling” really an official doctrine or position at all?
It is not a doctrine.
It is a position that is helpful for many people. Sometimes we can limit ourselves if we don’t stretch or exercise faith to do things we might think are impossible or hard to do. The Church can be a wonderful thing to stretch people.
But it is true that many can be stretched and break. And then, that position isn’t good anymore.
So it is not a universal position that works for all…but the church is trying to do what it does, and inspire actions and try to provide opportunities to grow.
In the end, we all must have our boundaries. Despite what is good for others, we must determine what is good for us. And when I extended callings to people, and was told no…it just meant as a bishopric we go look for another name. It wasn’t a big deal, and I don’t remember being disappointed in people, I always just thought it was one way the Lord could help the bishop know who was “right” for the calling (it was part of the process to have people turn down callings). That’s how I viewed it.
SD is right…boundaries are important. But we should always look to move our boundaries depending on what we can do at the time.
jwald has been a PP for years….never released even though we were inactive for most of 2012. I finally called BP and asked him to officially release her so she could choose to come just to SM with me…..without the guilt and pressure of not fullfilling her calling…And that she would never ask to be release or turn down a calling….because that is how we were raised to believe.
BP released her on the spot and said he wished we would have asked sooner…he didn’t realize it was keeping us from church.
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Nephite — the “never say no” and “dont’ ask to be released” ideas are not doctrine, but it became a cultural norm partly through a talk by Boyd K Packer called “The Unwritten Order of Things”. It is still widely believed by many in our church. For some, as Heber points out, this can be a wonderful expression of love for God and loyalty to the church, and an opportunity for growth in new ways. For others it can be a tremendous burden. Each person has to decide for themself.
I also think cwald was right about going to his Bishop and insisting on a release of jwald. This problem of priesthood leaders salivating and acting quickly when they want someone to take a calling, and then dragging their feet on the release — even after the person has stopped functioning — has happened multiple times in my church experience to myself and others. So, I would add that “not being afraid to assert yourself to priesthood leaders” is another coping principle.
To spin off something cWald said, I believe the flow of inspiration goes:
God-Man-Church, not God-Church-Man — as many in the church would have you believe.
If the official church organization wants something from me, I now turn to my own heart and to God and make a decision based on the merits of the situation — not based on the fact that a supernatural priesthood leader with special access to God asked me to do it. That no longer figures into the decision-making process unless I personally have confirmation that it should.
I personally have the big picture of my life and my relationship with God. The priesthood leader can augment that perspective with a church and personal perspective if he wants, giving me a fuller perspective. But ultimately, my time, my talents, and my commitment are for me (and my family) to give to the work of the Lord after I decide it’s a good idea in sincere reflection and prayer. I know the details of my life better than anyone.
In a way, I feel that many people would be happier if they did a Marth Luther and elevated their own decision-making and inspiration to the driver’s seat when it comes to the church. And I think this may well make the church better off in the long run for reasons I won’t share here.
I am encouraged to hear that other people believe saying no to a calling isn’t doctrine. It is a litmus test in our area. I have seen leaders get angry when others say no. It doesn’t even matter what their circumstances are. Do any of you believe the spirit can tell someone to say no to a calling? afterall wrote:I am encouraged to hear that other people believe saying no to a calling isn’t doctrine. It is a litmus test in our area. I have seen leaders get angry when others say no. It doesn’t even matter what their circumstances are. Do any of you believe the spirit can tell someone to say no to a calling?
Absolutely. This is one of the few things I am fairly certain of. If anyone is entitled to inspiration about what’s right for you, it’s you.
I’ve mentioned this before, but when extending callings, our SP takes a different tack than what I had been used to. He first explains to the person the position he is thinking of asking the person to fill and asks how he/she feels about it. Only after the person has basically agreed that he/she thinks it would be a good idea is the “calling” actually made. I know it sounds a little like splitting hairs, but I really appreciate that this shows a sensitivity to individual needs and concerns that was previously missing in my experience. Of course, your mileage may vary, depending on the personalities and culture of your own particular unit.
We are entitled to personal revelation. elder Oaks taught that our doctrine is clear that bishops and SPs do not have authority to receive revelation for our lives, our homes, or our families. This is the whole reason they “extend”callings, and ask for you to tell them if you accept. If it was doctrine you couldn’t say no, they wouldn’t need to ask.
But there is always differences between doctrine and practice. It is why it is important for all of us to stay informed, so when a leader steps out of line and says or acts like you can’t say no, you can correct them and say “I shouldn’t say no, but I can”. If they are using that as some kind of litmus test, they can have their test…I’m not interested in being manipulated.
So, yes…the spirit will help us say no sometimes. And we should always strive to discern the spirit telling me God’s will apart from my own will and my selfishness.
doug, that is exactly the approach I always tried to take, and it’s the approach I’ve appreciated the most in the past. I always draw a distinction between explaining an intended calling and actually asking someone to accept a calling. It’s an important distinction. Fwiw, more than once I’ve expressed concerns about a possible calling and asked the person asking me about a calling they want me to accept to go back and pray about it. I’ve told the person that I will accept it if they need me, but that I probably wouldn’t be very good at it or would be nothing more than a caretaker in practical terms. Once I was asked to accept it anyway; once I was not approached afterward; once it was put on hold while other things in my life at that time got resolved (my employment).
If I honestly thought I wouldn’t do a very good job but was willing to do what I could, and if they knew upfront that I would be doing a mediocre job, I was willing to do it without unrealistic expectations. That way, if anyone complained in any way or tried to guilt me into doing more, I could look them in the eye and say, honestly,
Quote:“I told you if you asked me you’d be getting me – and that I probably couldn’t do what you thought would be ideal. I’m a caretaker doing the best I can given my circumstances; if that’s not enough, release me. There won’t be any hard feelings on my part.”
I refuse to let anyone make me feel bad in any way for not doing more than I can do. If someone calls me, they get me. Period.
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