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I always considered the advice from Pres. Packer that “a testimony is found in the bearing thereof” to be him advising people to “fake it till you make it.” Heber13 wrote:
I also don’t think it is a purely mormon thing. Pretty much all religions are facing this.
Like Judaism. Kind of an odd thing to throw in, but I just read this Chaim Potok quote from an interview:Q: What were you coming to terms with in “The Chosen?”
Quote:Potok: The fundamentalism. The structured way of seeing the world. The ‘givenness’ of the tradition. The inability to maneuver and question. The legacy of the past that you are expected to absorb, master, and give back to the coming generation untouched, unaltered.
Every word resonates with me. So, if it’s real solace to know you/we’re not alone….But Jews have options; we really don’t. But maybe it’s better this way. Maybe we can keep one tent and enlarge it.
Fwiw, I always interpreted Pres. Packer’s testimony statement to be his way of saying that telling people what you believe or hope leads you to feel like you know those things. Psychologically, he wasn’t wrong – and I don’t think he ever considered his advice as telling people to fake it.
hawkgrrrl wrote:I always considered the advice from Pres. Packer that “a testimony is found in the bearing thereof” to be him advising people to “fake it till you make it.”
That is how I took that for about a half century and decided, “when is it going tomake it?” Now it feels to me more like
brainwashingQuote:These techniques include isolating the individual and controlling their access to information, challenging their belief structure and creating doubt, and repeating messages in a pressurized environment. … cults emphasize positive aspects of the group over negative aspects of outsiders, endlessly repeat simple ideas in “highly reductive, definitive – sounding phrases”
I am not accusing the LDS church of being a cult, just that for ME this feels like they are using some of the same tactics.
But I certainly remember in Young Men’s as a deacon going to some sort of BYC and after everyone gave their testimony the person in charge waited for 10 minutes in silence for me to give mine. I got pissed and stubborn as I, even at the age of 12, felt this was undue pressure.
My husband went along with ‘hoping’ the church was true for a long time for the sake of his kids and I. He had prayed and fasted many times for a spiritual witness about the BofM, JS etc, but it never came. He saw many good fruits of the church and just relied on others testimonies. He especially loved Paul H. Dunn and listened to many of his tapes. When it came out that the had fabricated some of his stories and testimonies, that was the final straw. He said that if a good man like Brother Dunn could fabricate his stories, how do I know JS did not fabricate his. My husband said that he would no longer rely on others testimonies and since he had never gotten one of his own, he decided to leave the church. He asked, “How long do you keep knocking on a door without anyone opening it.” He was finished with the church and has now become a humanitarian. He does many good works in his community and in other churches but to him, the lds church misrepresented itself and no longer believable. Bridget – it sounds like your husband landed in a good place. I’ve thought about this a lot, and it does come up from time to time here, often using the term”authentic.” First, I echo what others have said – there are far more people out there who don’t believe every single thing than you might think. Figuring out who believes little (or none) of it can be tricky. On the other hand it’s not totally necessary to know who they are other than having someone you have something in common with and maybe can have a discussion with. But just because someone doesn’t believe in polygamy doesn’t meant they also don’t believe in the WoW – so you still have to tread carefully.
On authenticity: I don’t think I’m faking it or be unauthentic or disingenuous at church. I don’t get up in F&TM (except to go to the bathroom during a particularly grating one) but I do gives talks and lessons. What I say in those meetings I believe. I just don’t happen to say what I don’t believe. No one really bares their souls, we all have secret locked rooms in our hearts that nobody will ever enter. So I can say things like this (from my last talk):
Quote:The sacrament is a symbolic manifestation of God’s love for us and partaking is symbolic manifestation of our love for Him. We needn’t be perfect to partake of the sacrament, in I fact I think the exact opposite is true – it leads us toward perfection. Jesus brought hope to those whom he taught in the ancient world. This hope that we can overcome our sins and imperfections through his grace exists and is as relevant in our day as it was in the days of Peter, Paul, and Nephi. As we remember Him, as he asked, our weekly partaking of the sacrament brings that hope to us individually.
Am I faking it because I don’t believe in a literal Nephi? Am I inauthentic because I don’t believe perfection is possible (at least here) nor do I believe it is a commandment? I don’t think so because I believe in that message I gave. Saying what I don’t believe would serve no purpose but to detract from the message. That’s not why I speak or teach. I teach and speak to spread the message of God’s love (not individual love, collective love), grace and mercy. Far too few members do that, so I see it as a mission, even a calling if you will. That is not at all fake.
LookingHard wrote:Bridget – it sounds like your husband landed in a good place.
Thanks lookinghard. It actually saved our marriage to have him leave the church.
DarkJedi wrote:Am I faking it because I don’t believe in a literal Nephi? Am I inauthentic because I don’t believe perfection is possible (at least here) nor do I believe it is a commandment? I don’t think so because I believe in that message I gave. Saying what I don’t believe would serve no purpose but to detract from the message. That’s not why I speak or teach. I teach and speak to spread the message of God’s love (not individual love, collective love), grace and mercy. Far too few members do that, so I see it as a mission, even a calling if you will. That is not at all fake.
Very profound!:thumbup:
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