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A couple weeks ago in HP the lesson was on free agency or pre mortal life, I don’t remember which. As we know Jesus Christ was chosen to be our savior but it was also said he knew he would be sacrificed, he knew he would be ridiculed and tortured, he knew of the physical and emotional pain to come, he saw himself raised on the cross, he saw the nails being driven, he knew exactly what was to come, every detail…and he accepted the plan anyway. As the comments came from around the room it seemed to be a bit of embellishment, humility seemed to be replaced by pride of this knowledge. During a slight lull I asked if I wanted to research this where could I read. Maybe I wasn’t shuttle enough. It seemed like somebody came into the room without a shirt on and sat down. Some the respondents were defensive. Read the scriptures, search the Ensign, read Jesus The Christ. Haven’t found anything yet except in scripture it was shown to Enoch. I have two problems with the comments. One was the impression of pride I got from the commentators and the other is the defensive posture from the same when questioned. I’m still searching but any references anyone can provide would be helpful and appreciated. It’s all speculation – and, of course, they got defensive. They saw your comment / question, I’m sure, as questioning or even demeaning Jesus. It’s hard to get more surprising than that, for most Christians. I’m not saying your question isn’t a good one. It is a good one. Our scriptures say Jesus grew from grace to grace and in favor with God and man. I think the way we portray him as being mistake-free and omniscient throughout his mortal life is silly, given our actual record. However, I can say something like that in church and get positive feedback only if I phrase it properly – and a question about where I can research what others are saying isn’t going to get positive feedback, imo.
I could have simply said where can I read about that. I thought about that later. Even so, the lack of references in a teaching/learning environment invalidates the point. I want to build my knowledge and understanding from scripture or doctrine not from speculation and somebody’s thoughts. Still searching. I’m sure there are thousands of references in Christian literature that talk about Jesus being omniscient. I think it will be much harder to find “mainstream” references that claim otherwise – from Mormon or non-Mormon sources. Seriously, I think this is one area where you might be better served simply recognizing that your view is heterodox and accepting that most others aren’t going to see it the way you do. Also, if you are researching in order to refute or convince others, I think you are doomed to frustration and failure. No matter what sources you might find to validate your view (and I am sure there are some), this is a battle I think you can’t win – or, if you do, it will be at the cost of losing the war.
The Gospel writers didn’t even agree on this point. How can we agree on it today? It depends entirely on what sources you choose to put the most weight in. I applaud James Talmage for his serious attempt to bring the life of Jesus into the LDS dialog (something that still eludes most of our collective thought). Yet, I’m not a fan of the book he produced for exactly the reasons you noted.
The Mormon Jesus is best represented in the Gospel of John… intelligent, logical, in control, compassionate, but just a little detached. He seems more connected with God than with Man. But another Jesus is represented in the Gospel of Mark… passionate, driven, misunderstood, tragic. In Mark, Jesus is one of us, but with powers granted by God, but he is ultimately abandoned by God because of us.
In the synoptic tradition, it seems that Jesus’ early ministry was focused on establishing a Kingdom of God here and now as a prototype of soon-to-come full Kingdom of God. But he goes to the “Mount of Transfiguration” where we are told in Luke that the heavenly messengers talked to him about his upcoming death. Around that time Jesus’ message changed to prophecies about his betrayal and death and the upcoming judgment of the world.
One final note. Disputes over what Jesus knew, or whether he was more Man or God, are not LDS issues. These go way, way back. By the end of the first century, there were factions forming that thought of Jesus as a man chosen by God and other factions forming that thought of him as a God (Christ) who inhabited the body of a man (Jesus). The scale with fully human on one end and fully divine on the other is an analog scale with all sorts of interpretations.
I speculate that He knew all these things in the pre-mortal realm as Jehovah God. However the veil of forgetfulness severed His connection to that knowledge. Whatever knowledge that He had in this life would have had to be learned here. This places Him in a position to make mistakes or trangressions. I haven’t suggested sins even though I am not fully convinced that the atonement would be null and void if He had. What seems a normal supposition to me does not go over well in LDS meetings. It is faith promoting to portray Jesus as perfect and faith destroying to suggest that he might not have been.
There are definately LDS sources that support the Jesus as perfect scenario. JS seems to have viewed Jesus as having arrived at his fullness by the time he went on the pilgrimage to Jerusalem with his parents. Could JS have been wrong about the youth of Jesus? Good luck trying to make that argument.
BRM wrote that God and Jesus have all the Omnis (omniscient, omnipotent, etc). It is hard to imagine how this might fit into eternal progression. How does one get to know everything to the point that nothing is possible that they do not know of it first? I’m not sure that the Omnis are fully scriptural or theologically sound in Mormon cosmology but they are certainly ingrained in our Christian cultural conception of God.
I do wish that we were more open to discussing different possibilities and perspectives without it being seen as threatening to all we hold dear but such is not the case I am afraid.
Old-Timer wrote:I’m sure there are thousands of references in Christian literature that talk about Jesus being omniscient. I think it will be much harder to find “mainstream” references that claim otherwise – from Mormon or non-Mormon sources.
Seriously, I think this is one area where you might be better served simply recognizing that your view is heterodox and accepting that most others aren’t going to see it the way you do. Also, if you are researching in order to refute or convince others, I think you are doomed to frustration and failure. No matter what sources you might find to validate your view (and I am sure there are some), this is a battle I think you can’t win – or, if you do, it will be at the cost of losing the war.
Ray I think you are miss reading my intentions, actually I have no intentions at all. This is a question specifically about pre mortal life and agency and at that time did Jesus know the details of his suffering on earth and choose to come anyway or did he know only that he would be sacrificed as a perfect being and a mediator. Nothing to do with being omniscient in mortality. I haven’t expressed my view, I have no view is why the quest for validation, I gave no indication I want to refute or convince anyone, this is not a battle, I don’t even care what the answer is. I just don’t want to rely on what sounds like fourth hand sources for what sounds to me like emotional declarations. If I am teaching youth and I get on this topic I want to know inside that I am teaching truth and not instilling emotions into the impressionable. So I’m just looking for anybody who believes this to help me understand why. It seems like an important part of the formula to me.
On Own Now wrote:
One final note. Disputes over what Jesus knew, or whether he was more Man or God, are not LDS issues. These go way, way back. By the end of the first century, there were factions forming that thought of Jesus as a man chosen by God and other factions forming that thought of him as a God (Christ) who inhabited the body of a man (Jesus). The scale with fully human on one end and fully divine on the other is an analog scale with all sorts of interpretations.That was a pretty good post OON. Only I am questioning specifically pre-mortal decision which I believe is an LDS POV.(?)
Thanks for clarifying Kipper. Our doctrine on this subject comes largely from the BoA. Quote:24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.
It says that the pre-mortal Jesus in this case was “like unto God.” Some (many) will infer from this phrase that Jesus knew everything about everything.
Roy wrote:
BRM wrote that God and Jesus have all the Omnis (omniscient, omnipotent, etc). It is hard to imagine how this might fit into eternal progression. How does one get to know everything to the point that nothing is possible that they do not know of it first? I’m not sure that the Omnis are fully scriptural or theologically sound in Mormon cosmology but they are certainly ingrained in our Christian cultural conception of God.I do wish that we were more open to discussing different possibilities and perspectives without it being seen as threatening to all we hold dear but such is not the case I am afraid.
Forgive my ignorance but I don’t know who BRM is (I’m sure it will be “oh yea” once you make it clear). This may be the closest I can get if I can find it and IF it applies to pre-mortal life.
Roy wrote:I do wish that we were more open to discussing different possibilities and perspectives without it being seen as threatening to all we hold dear but such is not the case I am afraid.
Questions are too often heard as questioning.
Roy wrote:Thanks for clarifying Kipper. Our doctrine on this subject comes largely from the BoA.
Quote:24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.
It says that the pre-mortal Jesus in this case was “like unto God.” Some (many) will infer from this phrase that Jesus knew everything about everything.
Hmmm, interesting. I would not infer that.
Personally, I don’t care if someone (or everyone) is defensive when I ask a question. I ask it. I make every effort to be diplomatic about it. When I can’t be diplomatic, I ask the question
to someone privately. But to say, read the scriptures or the Ensign isn’t an answer, IMO.
Kipper wrote:Forgive my ignorance but I don’t know who BRM is (I’m sure it will be “oh yea” once you make it clear).
Bruce R. McConkieKipper wrote:This is a question specifically about pre mortal life and agency and at that time did Jesus know the details of his suffering on earth and choose to come anyway or did he know only that he would be sacrificed as a perfect being and a mediator.
LDS theology is that Jesus is the same Jehovah who is God of the OT. The omniscience of Jehovah is not defined in the OT, but generally acknowledged, as in these two verses from Job: “For he looks to the ends of the earth, and sees everything under the heavens (Job 28:24)” and Job 37:16, which refers to Jehovah as “one whose knowledge is perfect.” An LDS scripture that holds the same concept is Abraham 2:8, “My name is Jehovah, and I know the end from the beginning.” The BofM says, “the Lord (Jehovah) knoweth all things from the beginning.”The best source is probably 1 Nephi 11, where God (Jehovah) shows Nephi a vision in which he sees the earthly ministry of Jesus. Verse 24: “And I looked and beheld the Son of God going forth among the children of men; and I saw many fall down at his feet and worship him.” Verse 27: “I beheld the heavens open, and the Holy Ghost come down out of heaven and abide upon him in the form of a dove.” Verses 32-33: “I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Son of the everlasting God was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record. And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world.” Those are pretty specific details, which Nephi “saw”. This implies that the foreknowledge of God is in seeing the future and not a matter of simply understanding how it will unfold.
Given the accepted belief in an omniscient God, I think it is a matter of connecting the dots in LDS theology that Jehovah knew exactly what would be done to the man Jesus. One could ask if Jehovah of the Council in the pre-existence had yet attained the omniscience of Jehovah of the Creation, but while the question can be asked, it will have to go unanswered, because there is no evidence either way (at least none that I am aware).
Great question, Kipper, and great responses. I have often wondered about this myself and have concluded we just don’t know – but that doesn’t mean I can’t think about it. Last Sunday I watched Killing Jesus on National Geographic. I’m sure most TBMs didn’t because 1. it was on Sunday and 2. it wasn’t produced by the church (and therefore can’t contain any elements of truth). Lest I get sidetracked with that, I did like the way Jesus was portrayed – seemingly not omniscient. There is a scene early on where he seems to realize that he has a mission (they skipped the boy in the temple thing BTW), and there are scenes where his “snappy responses” are not so snappy and he had a bit of a “deer in the headlights” look at first. I think lack of scriptural evidence is the biggest issue here. I can tell you me views, but they are just speculation like everyone else’s. For now I’m good with believing in some way I don’t understand He is my Savior whether he was fully God, fully human, both or neither or half and half.
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