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On Own Now wrote:Kipper wrote:
This is a question specifically about pre mortal life and agency and at that time did Jesus know the details of his suffering on earth and choose to come anyway or did he know only that he would be sacrificed as a perfect being and a mediator.
LDS theology is that Jesus is the same Jehovah who is God of the OT. The omniscience of Jehovah is not defined in the OT, but generally acknowledged, as in these two verses from Job: “For he looks to the ends of the earth, and sees everything under the heavens (Job 28:24)” and Job 37:16, which refers to Jehovah as “one whose knowledge is perfect.” An LDS scripture that holds the same concept is Abraham 2:8, “My name is Jehovah, and I know the end from the beginning.” The BofM says, “the Lord (Jehovah) knoweth all things from the beginning.”The best source is probably 1 Nephi 11, where God (Jehovah) shows Nephi a vision in which he sees the earthly ministry of Jesus. Verse 24: “And I looked and beheld the Son of God going forth among the children of men; and I saw many fall down at his feet and worship him.” Verse 27: “I beheld the heavens open, and the Holy Ghost come down out of heaven and abide upon him in the form of a dove.” Verses 32-33: “I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Son of the everlasting God was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record. And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world.” Those are pretty specific details, which Nephi “saw”. This implies that the foreknowledge of God is in seeing the future and not a matter of simply understanding how it will unfold.
Given the accepted belief in an omniscient God, I think it is a matter of connecting the dots in LDS theology that Jehovah knew exactly what would be done to the man Jesus. One could ask if Jehovah of the Council in the pre-existence had yet attained the omniscience of Jehovah of the Creation, but while the question can be asked, it will have to go unanswered, because there is no evidence either way (at least none that I am aware).
Reading thru this I saw good substance and another question started to develop which you addressed in your last paragraph. Really good stuff there, thanks. All the searches I did, I didn’t enter “cross”. This gives me a running start.
DarkJedi wrote:Great question, Kipper, and great responses. I have often wondered about this myself and have concluded we just don’t know – but that doesn’t mean I can’t think about it. Last Sunday I watched Killing Jesus on National Geographic. I’m sure most TBMs didn’t because 1. it was on Sunday and 2. it wasn’t produced by the church (and therefore can’t contain any elements of truth). Lest I get sidetracked with that, I did like the way Jesus was portrayed – seemingly not omniscient. There is a scene early on where he seems to realize that he has a mission (they skipped the boy in the temple thing BTW), and there are scenes where his “snappy responses” are not so snappy and he had a bit of a “deer in the headlights” look at first.
I think lack of scriptural evidence is the biggest issue here. I can tell you me views, but they are just speculation like everyone else’s. For now I’m good with believing in some way I don’t understand He is my Savior whether he was fully God, fully human, both or neither or half and half.
I watched that show too. Wife left after an hour thinking it was sac-religious. I expected that but I found myself feeling closer to the Man afterward and I am always able to filter and find interest in what others see, think and feel. I also went into it knowing it was not meant to portray or detract divinity but to show a historical record. It was awkward at times and not for everyone but I am better having watched it.
Kipper wrote:I found myself feeling closer to the Man afterward
IMO, a great way to feel closer to the man, Jesus, is to read the Gospel of Mark. It’s only 16 chapters. I suggest the NRSV (New Revised Standard Version), but the KJV is OK.Kipper wrote:I watched that show too. Wife left after an hour thinking it was sac-religious. I expected that but I found myself feeling closer to the Man afterward and I am always able to filter and find interest in what others see, think and feel. I also went into it knowing it was not meant to portray or detract divinity but to show a historical record. It was awkward at times and not for everyone but I am better having watched it.
My wife started off on her tablet on the couch while “watching,” but I’m not sure she even made it an hour before she went to another room. She wouldn’t watch last year’s Bible thing (the one by Roma Downey) either, but I really liked that one. She did have one of those “oh” moments when it was made into a theatrical release and our son’s MP gave all the missionaries time off to go see it.
On Own Now wrote:Given the accepted belief in an omniscient God, I think it is a matter of connecting the dots in LDS theology that Jehovah knew exactly what would be done to the man Jesus. One could ask if Jehovah of the Council in the pre-existence had yet attained the omniscience of Jehovah of the Creation, but while the question can be asked, it will have to go unanswered, because there is no evidence either way (at least none that I am aware).
Back in my more orthodox days I’d ponder on an omniscient Jehovah revealing things to the ancient prophets so he could then use those very revelations as an instruction manual to learn from when in mortality. When born he’d pass through the veil of forgetfulness just like the rest of us but he had his instruction manual that he had caused to be written.
That plan certainly introduces human frailty into the equation but I remember being inspired by the great deal of confidence he had placed on people to carry forward the things that would help him fulfill his mission.
Personally I need a Jesus that grew from grace to grace. A Jesus that came into his own is more relatable to me, an omniscient Jesus less so. For example, I think a trial is easier to weather when we know the beginning from the end. Take the LDS practice of fasting as an example. Fasting can help us gain
somemeasure of empathy for the hungry but it’s a trial that is easy to weather because we know the beginning from the end. We get to resume eating after the 24 hours is up. Compare that experience to a person that truly doesn’t know where or when their next meal is coming. To bring this thought back to Jesus I wonder how much he could truly succor me if he had a perfect knowledge of the beginning from the end. If Jesus’ experience was “yes, this is terrible now but I can literally count the days until it’s over” then how can I look to him when I have no such assurances? Jesus must have had some level of uncertainty in order to bear my burdens because uncertainty, for a time, was my burden.
Jesus growing from grace to grace inspires me in another way. If he truly condescended to my level and subsequently rose to become the son of god I can follow in those footsteps. He grew to the point where he was able to cast aside all worldly intermediaries between himself and his father, he developed a direct access. Can’t I do the same? I’ve taken his name upon myself, I think I’ve got the duty to become a son of god.
I think we really don’t know what the answer is. Even in our theology we claim we, each individual, understood things in the premortal world, but now can’t remember. I get to decide if I like that or not. There is no way or place to prove what I did or knew, and no sure way to prove what Christ did or knew. The references here from McConkie, the scriptures, and so on is all we have. Truman Madsen believed (and I don’t have his references nearby) that Christ did understand to an extent, he knew that a deep effort atonement was required. Thereby those of us who heard Madsen and trusted his belief walked away with a conviction that Christ did understand.
As my faith transition progresses I leave most of pre-mortal and post-mortal life on the shelf. I will know when I die.
My personal biggest struggle with the All Knowing Christ is the semantics of his works, and when I let that get into my head to long I totally spin out of control.
Nibbler – That is an outstanding piece of thought and belief. Inspiring on many levels. mom3 wrote:Nibbler – That is an outstanding piece of thought and belief. Inspiring on many levels.
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: nibbler wrote:Jesus growing from grace to grace inspires me in another way. If he truly condescended to my level and subsequently rose to become the son of god I can follow in those footsteps. He grew to the point where he was able to cast aside all worldly intermediaries between himself and his father, he developed a direct access. Can’t I do the same? I’ve taken his name upon myself, I think I’ve got the duty to become a son of god.
Great post, as usual, nibbler. Reminds me of a favorite NT passage:Quote:[God has called us] to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he [Jesus] might be the firstborn within a large family. — Romans 8:29 (NRSV)
Thanks for your kind words. This is an interesting topic. I don’t believe Christ knew everything as a mortal. My dad believes the scripture in the Bible that talk about that is only referring to his childhood, not his earthly ministry. But I think that scripture is talking about his entire life. Leaving aside the Divine thing, the Jesus of the Gospels is very intuitive and I think he knew he was making waves. However, stoning was actually a much more likely scenario for his death than crucifixion and one wonders whether he thought that was coming i stead. SamBee wrote:Leaving aside the Divine thing, the Jesus of the Gospels is very intuitive and I think he knew he was making waves. However, stoning was actually a much more likely scenario for his death than crucifixion and one wonders whether he thought that was coming i stead.
I like the Givens take on the garden. Matthew describes it like this (emphasis added):
Quote:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father,
if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. 40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation:
the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father,
if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.The givens note the difference in “if it be possible” and “if this cup may not pass.” Their take is that Jesus arrived at the garden and only then realized how truly difficult and painful his task was going to be. So his first plea was more of a “is it possible this can happen some other way or that I don’t have to do this?” After leaving to check his apostles, perhaps even to consult with them and/or comfort them (we don’t know his mind) he at some point realized, perhaps by revelation, that there was no other way. So his second prayer was, “since this can’t happen any other way, I’ll do what you what you need me to do.”
I actually think that’s pretty profound – and it plays into this conversation. Isn’t it possible that Jesus knew he was supposed to go and offer this prayer but didn’t know fully what was going to happen? Isn’t it possible, as SamBee said, that Jesus knew he was going to die the next day, but not how? Is it possible that he also saw through a glass darkly?
Can’t disagree with anything you said there DJ… I mentioned stoning, because that was the Jewish method of execution for blasphemy. I think it was far more likely that he would be executed by the Jews for blasphemy than the Romans, since Roman execution would be for serious crime, and political insurrection. It is possible that Jesus was causing political trouble, and some have hinted at this. The “INRI” at the top of the cross is probably a sick joke by the Romans about a potential political leader.
Remember Martin Luther King was pretty sure he was going to be murdered. He mentioned the Promised Land, and “I might not make it there with you”.
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