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Something struck me as I was reading a few of the recent threads here at StayLDS. I’m going to block it off as a quote just to highlight it. Quote:Threads here generally complain that the Church tells us what to do too much – except in those instances where it doesn’t give us enough direction.
I really think there’s a profound “something” in there – and I’d really like to hear everyone’s thoughts about it.
My observation is there are more posts about the church telling us to do too many things, and fewer around wanting more direction. Perhaps it has something to do with the personality types of members of the group.
The problem is that there is no right amount direction that is right for everyone. Some want a direct set of rules or a checklist and others just want a recommendation or target with no micromanagement. It is the same way at work or at home with kids. One size never fits all. I think this is a reference to the fact we were complaining that the StayLDS article claims the Church helps us with obesity, when it doesn’t given any real practical advice about how to go about doing it. Just my guess, but I was kind of expecting a thread like this as a result. Here is my take on this. People in general resent being FORCED to accomplish an objective a certain way — this is called micro-management. However, they APPRECIATE knowing the various pathways that can be taken to achieve a broad goal, and to decide the one that is right for them.
In the Church, I feel we have strong presences at different ends of the spectrum. Practices such as tithing and how you go about the day-to-day activities of the Church, your supposed life plan (youth-mission-marriage-children-lifetime of service-senior’s mission), and all the stuff in the CHI of instructions are pretty heavily scripted. Also, they attach certain commandments to your status and worthiness to enter heaven, and these are strongly micro-managed with interviews, talks threatening you’ll be burned at the second coming if you don’t pay tithing, interviews as to whether you paid your tithing, etcetera.
At the other end of the spectrum, you have the large, overarching goals like “be a good parent; have a good marriage; be healthy” and there is very little direction given there. In fact, the Church DISCOURAGES bringing practical advice from experts into classes in the Church. You are supposed to stick with Church approved stuff, which I find is generally light on power when it comes to some of life’s specific challenges such as parenting challenges and marital troubles. So, time at Church tends to be be invested in hearing the same old stuff reworked different ways, which is boring, rather than giving me tools for solving some of the problems in my life. And the only justification given is “we need to be reminded”.
For example, on marriage, all you really get is SWK’s statement that you should marry someone who is as close to perfection as possible, who is similar in socio-economic, racial background etcetera, the ingredients of a successful marriage are living the gospel and a few other general principles. I did all that stuff and still had marital troubles early on. The advice was far too incomplete and merely one person’s opinion — so, I had to turn to outside sources. And by the way, LDS Social services doesn’t have the capacity or flexibilty to provide targeted, professional advice because there hasn’t been the investment in their services to make them substantial, accessible or responsive in my experience in two parts of the world — one where the Church was established but small, and the place I live now where it is reasonably well developed (but not as developed as Utah).
So, what is the right amount of direction? Direction that shows us broad outcomes, as well as a menu of possible choices and resources for how to get there. Each person can review, learn and decide about these choices, and then find the solution that is right for them. Direction, in my view, that turns me into a mechanistic tool to enact someone else’s scripted way of doing things, and forces me into it with interviews, threats, and denial of certain rights of passage is TOO MUCH direction.
I agree with Brown. Not everyone will benefit from the same amount of direction. For some of us there is too much and for others, too little. Boy, I don’t think I’m guilty on this one. If I have ever complained about there not being enough direction and not enough commandments, than I probably should just go ahead and eat my hat. Now, I am cynical about the church’s claims of being the one and only true church
with a prophet who speaks for god in all things.If that is the case, than lets hear what he has to say – and I don’t mean things like wearing two sets of earrings
I want to know about when life begins, why people are gay, how the universe was created, why polygamy was really practiced, and will it be practiced in the CK, why it took so long to lift the priesthood ban, whether or not we should be involved in the wars in the Middle East, clarification on the sex sin next to murder, why tea is still in the WoW and what does it have to do with one’s health, how should we approach climate change and environmentalism, etc etc.:crazy: No —- I am definitely in the “each person must find god for themselves and walk their own path. I don’t want the church defining that path for me.
I think the level of direction we each need is dependent upon our spiritual maturity. We are supposed to progress from milk to meat, from sheep to shepherds, and from children to “even as I am”. You see the ends of this maturity spectrum presented in scripture. The childen of Israel, unprepared to accept the higher law, instead receive a scripted preparatory gospel with demands designed to breed humility and submission. In contrast, if you look at Nephi in the book of Helaman, you see someone so capable of self-governance that the Lord says
“… I will bless thee forever; and I will make thee mighty in word and in deed, in faith and in works; yea, even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word, for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will. Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God. Behold, I declare it unto thee in the presence of mine angels… Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people.”The church has to teach people across the spectrum and often the emphasis is on preparatory or scripted religiosity. However, one thing I’ve noticed is that the closer I feel toward Nephi’s end of the spectrum, the less I feel “directed” because what is asked of me is what I would generally do anyway.
The church says sustain your leaders and I think “I want to be a positive influence on those who are learning through their service by providing a supportive atmosphere anda Christ-like example.”
The church says be honest in all your dealings and I think “I’d never intentionally cause injury to another wih deception.”
The church says avoid pornogaphy and I think “I’d never objectify one of my brothers or sisters for self-gratification.”
The church says pay a generous fast offering and I think “I’d give the shirt off my back right now if I knew someone who was going going without.”
The church says magnify your callings and I think “I’d love to be able to help someone feel the love of God, to see what I’ve seen and know what I know.”
The church says obey the word of wisdom and I think “I need to be healthy because there is so much I want to do to serve others and I can’t do it when I feel unwell.”
The church says wear your best clothes to church and I think “I want to be less casual in my worship so that the impressionable youth and children in my life see how much I value this act of communion with God and fellow saints and how sacred I see the reenactment of the Lord’s last supper, the sacrifice of the unblemished lamb on the altar of the sacrament table, the gentle lifting of the white cloth from a stone slab upon which no body lies – a symbol of the resurrection.”
As individuals, we determine where we are along the spectrum and how we receive the direction. There will be times when we have to choose between the scripted law and the celestial law. Like the Good Samaritan, the priest, and the Levite, how we respond in those moments reveals how close we are to God.
Again – that’s just my take on things. Hope it makes sense to someone
mercyngrace wrote:…
Again – that’s just my take on things. Hope it makes sense to someone
Hmmm? I don’t know.
I guess I see it a little bit differently. Example: I have no problem with the church asking us to dress nicely — but I have a huge problem with them insisting on white shirts – as if white shirts make a person “more spiritual” somehow than a guy wearing a blue shirt. I have no problem with the church asking us to take care of our bodies, but I have a huge problem with them telling folks that tea is bad for them. I no problem paying my fair share and giving tithing to the church to help the poor and pay electric bills for the churches, but I have a huge problem when they build malls and buy hunting reserves, and then fire church janitors who are depending on that salary to make a living. I have no problem when the church asks us to obey the law of chastity, but I have a huge problem when they define what that means in my own bedroom with my spouse, and what I can and cannot do. I have no problem with the church asking us to do many of these things — but I have huge problem that we have developed a tier system within the church, and that our culture has made it VERY uncomfortable for many folks to feel welcome — like those who have coffee breath or a tattoo…
btw — I agree with sometimes we need to choose between the scripted law and the celestial law. I guess i just disagree with many members what that means. I believe that being honest with our fellow man, helping the poor, and living the LoC are celestial laws. I think that wearing just one set of earrings, not drinking tea and coffee, telling married couples not to engage in “unnatural acts” in their bedroom, and insisting everyone wears white shirts to church are about as scripted and mosaic laws as you can get -and have no place in the celestial kingdom. Yet we use many of these kind of requirements to determine who does and who doesn’t get to visit the “celestial room.” IMO —- that is the crux of this thread. I guess the LDS church can give as much direction as they choose – but I sure wish they would back off on insisting that everyone, and all members, who are going to get into the CK MUST abide by ALL of their man-made rules and policies to earn their salvation and exaltation.
cwald – I don’t disagree with your observations. The white shirt obsession, earring counting, and facial hair/hair length business is all cultural nonsense and I think it speaks to our collective spiritual maturity that these types of things even merit a mention in church.
Notice that the temple recommend interview doesn’t go into specific about the law of chastity – bascially, what you covenant to in the temple is the extent of the law. Everything else is someone’s opinion.
And there is no covenant about white shirts. I’ve seen men and boys pass the sacrament in colored shirts before and had an experience as a teen when my brother came to church without a tie. My parents were out of town so it was just the two of us at church. I saw his deacons quorum advisor take him to the back of the chapel before church, remove his own tie, and put it on my brother so he wouldn’t feel out of place. So while I agree that “the uniform” is scripted , at least in that instance, I saw a man act like Christ in order to help a boy meet the letter of the law. It was a moving moment and decades later still reminds me that often the laws exist as much to try us as to teach us.
There’s a lot more that underlies this discussion about how preparatory laws exist so that through the violation thereof we come to recognize our need for redemption (i.e. God gives laws that He knows we will transgress because doing so brings us to Christ for redemption and communion with Christ changes our nature)
So in a sense, the scripted law (and our stumbling through it) is necessary and prepares us to receive the gospel.
I completely agree about the imperfect nature of the church and the fact that many (even in leadership positions) seem completely unable to recognize the difference between the higher and lower laws. It can be frustrating.
Yeah Mercy, that’s all good. It’s really frustrating to me that we have a church that claims to be the
“fullness of the gospel”– and yet we have so many members and leaders that have molded our culture right back into the “Law of Moses.” cwald wrote:Yeah Mercy, that’s all good.
It’s really frustrating to me that we have a church that claims to be the
“fullness of the gospel”– and yet we have so many members and leaders that have molded our culture right back into the “Law of Moses.” I struggled with this for a LONG time and wrestled with how I could possible help move my small corner of the church forward toward the ideal. Then the Lord humbled me with a bright recollection of my own past as a Pharisee and simple truth became plain to me. My most profound personal growth has come through adversity and experience. It’s bound to be so for all of us – after all the purposes of this world are only accomplished through the existence of opposition. So, we’re all going to awaken to the higher law in our own time after our own experiences alert us to the unsatisfying deadness of the lower law.
Just because the “fullness” of the gospel is available, doesn’t mean that we’re all (or even mostly) taking advantage of it.
Old-Timer wrote:Something struck me as I was reading a few of the recent threads here at StayLDS. I’m going to block it off as a quote just to highlight it.
Quote:Threads here generally complain that the Church tells us what to do too much– except in those instances where it doesn’t give us enough direction. I really think there’s a profound “something” in there – and I’d really like to hear everyone’s thoughts about it.
I don’t think there is any perfect amount of direction that everyone would ever be completely happy with. Some members want to know what Church leaders think about all kinds of detailed questions and others would rather come up with their own answers. What bothers me more than the amount of direction given by the Church is the overbearing and intrusive level of expectation that we absolutely need to believe in and conform to all this unsolicited direction. What they preach is one thing, trying to enforce it through high pressure tactics like TR interviews is something else entirely.
That’s one of the most significant differences between the LDS Church and other churches like the Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, etc. in my opinion; it seems like it would be much easier to get away with ignoring what various ministers or dignitaries say in most other mainstream churches than it would be in the LDS Church because most active members take everything Church leaders say so seriously and expect other members to do the same. Meanwhile the Pope can harp on the evil of condoms, birth control, etc. all he wants but it doesn’t mean most practicing Catholics are going to listen to it.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:…LDS Church because most active members take everything Church leaders say so seriously and expect other members to do the same. Meanwhile the Pope can harp on the evil of condoms, birth control, etc. all he wants but it doesn’t mean most practicing Catholics are going to listen to it.
No they are not – and they don’t have the pressure that comes from ignoring the “commandment” because they have to get a TR so they can attend their kids wedding, or the “shame” of being a second tier Catholic.
The Mormons church has just upped the stakes on disobeying the rules and policies.
mercyngrace wrote:cwald wrote:Yeah Mercy, that’s all good.
It’s really frustrating to me that we have a church that claims to be the
“fullness of the gospel”– and yet we have so many members and leaders that have molded our culture right back into the “Law of Moses.” I struggled with this for a LONG time and wrestled with how I could possible help move my small corner of the church forward toward the ideal. Then the Lord humbled me with a bright recollection of my own past as a Pharisee and simple truth became plain to me. My most profound personal growth has come through adversity and experience. It’s bound to be so for all of us – after all the purposes of this world are only accomplished through the existence of opposition. So, we’re all going to awaken to the higher law in our own time after our own experiences alert us to the unsatisfying deadness of the lower law.
Just because the “fullness” of the gospel is available, doesn’t mean that we’re all (or even mostly) taking advantage of it.
Yes, that’s all good. I guess the question comes than, what do we do about it, because the church is realy not welcoming us folks, and caters to those who want, ask for and need the law. JD made that very point over at NOM, that if the church wants us and welcomes us – they need to say so. I don’t think they are saying that – I really don’t think that many of our leaders are willing to sacrifice some of the TBMish members to make us feel welcome or make room for us in the church? I know Ray will disagree, but I just don’t see it coming from GC or the Ensign or the manuals. If anything we are pushing more conformity and orthodoxy – rather than the alternative.
I’m not sure that I can continue to live “The Law of Moses” like I did for 30years in the LDS church, and pretend that’s it’s all fine and dandy, when the spirit is clearly driving me in a different direction. Some of you can, and I respect that. My testimony of “the gods” and “the spiritual” has just evolved past that kind of thinking. It doesn’t work for me.
Perhaps more accurate — I DON’T WANT TO LIVE THE LAW anymore. The law, IMO, is a shallow, dead-end spiritual journey.
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