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I’d say it is all myth and legend, and it can apply to us in a very real way. Everything is spiritual, and is the fabrication of God and of men. The foundational divine events did happen, but perhaps not in the exact way that many members would picture. It is “true”, but as has been pointed out there are many definitions of truth. My major reconciliation strategy has been to separate the physical from the spiritual. Everything about the gospel applies to the spiritual, the associated physical realities don’t concern me. I once heard a local leader answer “everything” when asked how much of the temple is symbolic. I don’t see a problem applying the same answer to the gospel in our lives. It can be symbolic, spiritual, and personally very powerful and real. Some people just have to let go of the literal/physical associations to get on with their lives in the church. I can’t see that as a huge tragedy.
Heber: By exclusivity I mean claiming the the prophet is the only person in the world that receives revelation from God and Jesus for the entire of mankind, that only those LDS men with the priesthood can bless, baptize, cofirm, seal, and forgive and have it recognized by God, and that the LDS church has taken it upon itself as the sole repository of the fullness of the gospel to try and bring all the world through it’s missionary and temple work to Christ, christian or not, alive or dead. Stuff like that.
I’ve tried to respond to this a few times…but I’ve not liked the direction I was going each time. I hate labels. I don’t like the idea that we often ask, and are asked what/who we are. Democrat or Republican, Mormon or Buddhist, etc.. I resonate with certain parts of the democratic platform, and the same for the republican. I AM a Mormon, but I resonate with much of Buddhism, Gnosticism, Atheism, Secular Humanism, and my latest “label” is Ignosticism (mainly because by definition, God is not “defined” in it). But there are parts of each that I absolutely do not agree with or believe.
Having said that, I will say that none of the “choices” resonate with me…mainly because the way I view life today is a bit different than most (probably). I think “life” is an illusion. We create our own reality. My reality is not yours, and vice versa. Did JS see the First Vision the way it is reported? Probably not…but maybe in his mind he did. Or maybe it happened in a dream. I know I’ve had a few dreams like that , so that is “real” to me…at the time.
It’s all an illusion. Time and space are illusions. Einstein started proving that, and many others have helped to explain it since then. So what does that mean? If I had to choose a “Prophet” for me, right now, it would probably be Eckhart Tolle. But only because he is quite popular today in the way he explains spirituality in the present moment. HIs ambiguity and universality of paths is extremely attractive to me. I also love the Dalai Lama…for the same reason.
It’s about living in the present. What works for me? What works for others? They may be different…and I respect each path.
Rix wrote:
It’s all an illusion. Time and space are illusions.Maybe we are all just a thought in someones mind. Maybe our universe is just a spec of dust in another universe. Maybe we are just a program on someones laptop. I say take the red pill
I go with, I think, therefore I am. Rix, I think there is a difference between perceptions and illusions.
Definition of
illusion: an erroneous mental representation. Definition of
perception: becoming aware of something via the senses. Perhaps more of our reality is illusion than what we like to accept…but it can’t ALL be illusion, can it?
I think there are things about the church that feel so real to me, that even if some things are “mysteries”, there s enough there to help me feel the church is “true” enough that it isn’t all an illusion or false hope.
Rix wrote:I think “life” is an illusion. We create our own reality. My reality is not yours, and vice versa.
Orson wrote:Everything about the gospel applies to the spiritual, the associated physical realities don’t concern me.
These two quotes define my current state of “being”. (btw, loved that rix put quotes on life instead of illusion.)
My spiritual life is an illusion created by me to represent transcendental ideas about the “reality” I have created for myself.
btw, this is what everyone does, they just won’t/don’t/can’t admit it…
Oh man, lots of great responses. I’ll just add my “drop in the bucket.” I’m mostly on-board with Rix (not sure about all the “illusion” stuff, despite general relativity. I think I’m too much of a pragmatist). I despise labels, so I categorically reject questions that ask me to identify with a pre-set statement (sorry Cadence). So my answer to the question is “I don’t know” (I know it’s very unsatisfying). At the end of the day, my biggest mistake in life, pre-disaffection, was my undying certainty in my perception of the church and Gospel. I will not be deceived by such a psychological trick again. As a result, I remain skeptical, uncertain, embracing, wishy-washy, believing, disbelieving, agnostic, atheist, theist, Mormon, Buddhist, etc. all rolled into one.
Euhemerus wrote:Oh man, lots of great responses. I’ll just add my “drop in the bucket.”
I’m mostly on-board with Rix (not sure about all the “illusion” stuff, despite general relativity. I think I’m too much of a pragmatist). I despise labels, so I categorically reject questions that ask me to identify with a pre-set statement (sorry Cadence). So my answer to the question is “I don’t know” (I know it’s very unsatisfying). At the end of the day, my biggest mistake in life, pre-disaffection, was my undying certainty in my perception of the church and Gospel. I will not be deceived by such a psychological trick again. As a result, I remain skeptical, uncertain, embracing, wishy-washy, believing, disbelieving, agnostic, atheist, theist, Mormon, Buddhist, etc. all rolled into one.
Yup, coulda said all that!
I don’t think solipsism is helpful when it comes to dealing with others. Humans are social animals and our morality revolves around that, as does our intelligence… We must think more about how to deal with others, rather than just ourselves. At least the COJCLDS offers some pointers in that direction. My spiritual life thus far has been too much about me, and not enough about others.
SamBee wrote:My spiritual life thus far has been too much about me, and not enough about others.
Great reminder, Sam. That is one of the great paradoxes…you must lose yourself in service to others to find yourself spiritually. I don’t think it can be done any other way.Thank you… I went to a meditation retreat once, and one of the things was to talk about ourselves and our progress, and our meditation experiences. I had been reading a book at the same time which discussed how different the Asian and Western experience was on this. The book said that the Asians in these types of discussions would talk about how they related to others and how they could serve them, whereas the Westerners were like “me me me”, and “X & Y is happening to me”. (It was a single sex retreat, a female discussion group of this type may have been different)
I actually brought this up, and no one understood what I meant!
SamBee wrote:It was a single sex retreat
I thought this said… single’s “sex retreat”!
flowerdrops wrote:SamBee wrote:It was a single sex retreat
I thought this said… single’s “sex retreat”!
That could have been interesting. It was at a retreat center. Someone actually did crack the joke, “if this is a sex cult, then I’ve joined the wrong one, because everyone’s male.”
My answer is honestly none of the above. At this point in my life it is a huge question mark. I feel I do not know enough to say what is 100% true. To be honest I am not sure I ever will. There are few things I do not question, a few things that I know were the spirit guiding me, or some sort of spiritual element. I have not been guided by more that emotion in the church. It does make me emotional, it makes me feel good, and it feels right. For that reason I go with it, and I try to look past the things that feel oh so very wrong. I have always figured I would be that person who never knew, maybe I will be surprised. Just as I can’t say I believe in the church, I can’t say I think it is false. I lean towards thinking that much of what is taught is men mingled with doctrine, but I am not sure exactly everything that is men, and that which is divine. I lean towards B, I wonder about all of the options, but my final answer is none of the above.
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