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I would say something like: Quote:“It’s doing really well – and it’s exciting to begin to figure out my own testimony without relying on borrowed light from others.”
Seriously, how is someone going to challenge that kind of statement without seeming really foolish?
SilentDawning wrote:BP: What about your salvation?
I dunno, SD, looks like this is where the conversation took a left turn. Of course, I’m looking at this from the outside and with 20/20 hindsight vision, but it seems to me that the question about salvation was not exactly appropriate. I think less is more in these interviewing situations, and instead of going down the rat-hole of personal struggle, etc., I thnk it important to separate personal spirituality (salvation) from frustration with church. According to Book of Mormon, Mosiah 3:17, “There shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent”.Salvation is not a church matter — nothing the church can do will affect my salvation, because that is between me and the god of my understanding.
If my BP asked about my salvation, I would answer, “BP, my salvation is between me and my savior, and of that relationship I have no doubt right now. I think I’m taken aback by the behavior of the some of the church leaders, and I need a little time to sort that out.”
for what it’s worth…
wayfarer wrote:Salvation is not a church matter — nothing the church can do will affect my salvation, because that is between me and the god of my understanding.
I call BS.
Yes, yes, Way, we get it. You and I and most folks here agree 100%. But, BUT, there is no way that our church agrees with this comment. No way. In the LDS church today, one MUST go through the church authority to reach god. MAN > CHURCH > GOD. Yes? Some one convince me I am wrong and that I’m just being tough on the church. PLEASE! I would love to be wrong. I mean, is there any such thing as real repentance that does not go through the priesthood leadership? Is there anything in the form of essential ordinances that do not go through the priesthood? And please don’t talk about temple work for the dead in this conversation, because we all know that the traditional belief is that those things are only reserved for those who did not get a chance in this lifetime.
The LDS church, the church priesthood today, insist that all must go through them to reach salvation. I contend this is a horrible and malicious doctrine, and I don’t think our pure mormonism, the church that JS envisioned, ever intended for to be this way. Will we ever evolve past this kind of warped spiritual view? I don’t know.
cwald wrote:wayfarer wrote:Salvation is not a church matter — nothing the church can do will affect my salvation, because that is between me and the god of my understanding.
I call BS.
Yes, yes, Way, we get it. You and I and most folks here agree 100%. But, BUT, there is no way that our church agrees with this comment. No way. In the LDS church today, one MUST go through the church authority to reach god. MAN > CHURCH > GOD. Yes? Some one convince me I am wrong and that I’m just being tough on the church. PLEASE! I would love to be wrong. I mean, is there any such thing as real repentance that does not go through the priesthood leadership? Is there anything in the form of essential ordinances that do not go through the priesthood? And please don’t talk about temple work for the dead in this conversation, because we all know that the traditional belief is that those things are only reserved for those who did not get a chance in this lifetime.
The LDS church, the church priesthood today, insist that all must go through them to reach salvation. I contend this is a horrible and malicious doctrine, and I don’t think our pure mormonism, the church that JS envisioned, ever intended for to be this way. Will we ever evolve past this kind of warped spiritual view? I don’t know.
You are wrong…in a Way…
The scriptures including BoM say that salvation comes in and through christ and in no other way.
Doctrinally, the church teaches that the atonement of christ is once and for all. Salvation, in the LDS sense, is the free gift of life eternal and resurrection, which occurs for everyone that goes to the telestial, terrestrial, or celestial kingdoms. LDS would say that exaltation, “eternal life” in the CK requires the ordinances of the priesthood. Thus Salvation is available to all by virtue of the atonement, and exaltation only thru the priesthood, repentance, temple covenants, and enduring to the end…
And yes, real repentance does not have to go thru the priesthood, except for certain sins that would typically result in Church Discipline. But even an excommunicated person has the right to pray and receive answers.
That is church doctrine, not my opinion.
You are correct. According to the church, the only thing the we need the church for is EXALTATION…rather than salvation 🙄 My bad.I get what you are saying. I just don’t think many traditional mormons do.
I don’t think the church has anything to do with salvation or exaltation. I just think it is one pathway, one of many, that folks can use to find the gods and find peace.
wayfarer wrote:And yes, real repentance does not have to go thru the priesthood, except for certain sins that would typically result in Church Discipline. But even an excommunicated person has the right to pray and receive answers.
That is church doctrine, not my opinion.
I think you are being VERY VERY generous to the church today Way…but, I’ll just let this go since we are on StayLDS today. I know you know what I am talking about. I’ll just let it go.
Frankly, this is one instance, imo, where the LDS Church gets to have its cake and eat it, too – and I’m OK with that. Let me explain: 1) The LDS Church teaches that the ordinances of the Priesthood are necessary for exaltation, but we also teach that they will be performed for literally everyone who ever has lived. Iow, they’re necessary, but so what?
Them happening is a given, so it’s no big deal that they happen.It simply “is”. In a very real way, if they happen for all, there really isn’t any deep, practical meaning to them. (For example [and I know the limitations of this analogy], for every participant at this site, air is critical to survival, but it’s all around us, so there isn’t any real meaning to an argument about whether or not air is necessary for continued life. It’s universal; hence, it just “is”.) 2) This allows them to become truly and totally symbolic – which is why I’m OK with it. Providing the ordinances for every single person who ever has lived removes ALL “arbitrary” aspects of salvation and exaltation and says we really will be “judged” according to who we become – NOT what ordinances we perform. That’s so important that I will repeat it:
Quote:
Whether or not ordinances are necessary is irrelevant, IF we posit that they will be performed in the end for every person who ever has lived. If they are going to be performed, the only “real” benefit is to those who perform them – particularly in regard to how they see / judge others. Therefore, I really like the principle of vicarious ordinances.I get it that most members don’t see it that way, but that’s just because they haven’t thought or can’t think about it deeply enough – or have a perspective that doesn’t allow them to say it that way. Again, that’s fine with me – since it’s the performance of them that can blunt the natural cynicism and arrogance we see throughout much of the rest of Christianity. It absolutely doesn’t do so in WAY too many cases in the Church, but it can – and that’s important to me.
Iow, “pure Mormonism” teaches what wayfarer says, while “practical Mormonism” is a constant battle between the pure ideal and the “natural (wo)man” – as cwald says. Given the practical battle, it’s important to understand the ideal – so I don’t want it brushed aside in any way. Yes, there’s a difference between what it means and how it’s understood and presented often, but that just means it’s even more important not to reject the ideal just because it doesn’t match the current, common real.
If I can comment on what Wayfarer said earlier — that when they asked me about my salvation/exhaltation. I indicated I’ll have to accept the consequences and that ended that line of questioning. But it may well have only reinforced the hardlining. At the same time, it leave me in a position to respond and face no immediate consequences either — the BP can’t take away my salvation now so it is a moot point. Perhaps a better statement would be:
Quote:
Ultimately, salvation and exhaltation is the Lord’s judgment….neither you or I can know definitively what that outcome will be for either of us. So, I think we should focus on what we need right now as a Silentdawning family — from the Church and our priesthood leaders.On that note, we need space. We need empathy, even though our situation may well be foreign to you. We need time to work through our own issues in our own way, and on our own timeline, and this will likely to take patience and longsuffering as it mentions in Mosiah 3:5 — from our local leaders. Given the commitment we have shown in previous difficult times, the testimony we have, the faith we profess and the commitment we have shown this far to the Church, I would be especially careful the local leaders didn’t do anything to knock the Silentdawning family off the rails during this sensitive and important time in our growth. I think we are a family with great hope and potential given the obstacles we have come through so far in the Church.”
I think Ray’s expose is interesting. That the ordinances are for the people performing them since everyone gets them some day. However, I don’t see it as focused on the opening point of how much to share with priesthood leaders. Or how to interact with them in a way that prevents them from worsening the situation. Many behave that way when someone challenges the paradigm — we have cWald’s example and many others who have graced this forum as examples. I don’t think they realize that in their frustration or haste to get short term results or make a point through extrinsic motivators, they can end up pushing someone away for life.
Yeah, SD, I probably should have added upfront and explicitly that I would NOT share what I wrote with leaders who are questioning my salvation. :shh: :silent:
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