How Should Forgiveness and Repentance Be Taught?

[Anonymous]

Orson wrote:

I view forgiveness as the prime divine action on earth…I would love to hear it taught that the key to the slightest grasp of the divine on earth lies in learning to forgive someone that does not deserve to be forgiven.

Personally I don’t believe that anyone really deserves to be forgiven. Sure they can stop doing whatever is perceived to be wrong, apologize, etc. but it’s not like they can go back in time and undo whatever mistakes they have already made. That’s why I see forgiveness as more of a gift from God rather than something we really earn. As far as forgiving others I think it is just part of being a charitable person (if that’s what you want to be) to not continue to hold a grudge over something in the past that you can’t really change now.

[Anonymous]

doug wrote:

By example.

I should add that I mean that in the most literal sense.

For some reason I was thinking the other day about the steps of repentance (recognize, remorse, recompense, etc), and it occurred to me that a big part of the reason for my anger at the church is because a) I feel that in certain respects my trust in the church has been violated and b) I’m fairly certain I will never be asked by the church for my forgiveness for those violations. The chuch will never properly go through the repentance process. They may recognize past mistakes and feel bad about them, but they will never (so it seems) try to make amends. For instance, in the case of the Ronald Poelman GC talk in 1984, wouldn’t it be appropriate for someone in church leadership to say, “Hey, we really blew it there. It was an overreaction, it was well-intended, but we really blew it, and we ask for your forgiveness and promise never to try to pull the wool over your eyes again.” Not going to happen. The preferred method is to just forget about it and hope the problem goes away. Trying to maintain the facade of perfection is counterproductive. A church that can admit its mistakes would go a long way toward helping individuals who struggle with their own feelings of unworthiness to be able to forgive themselves.

[Anonymous]

doug wrote:

doug wrote:

By example.

I should add that I mean that in the most literal sense.

For some reason I was thinking the other day about the steps of repentance (recognize, remorse, recompense, etc), and it occurred to me that a big part of the reason for my anger at the church is because a) I feel that in certain respects my trust in the church has been violated and b) I’m fairly certain I will never be asked by the church for my forgiveness for those violations. The chuch will never properly go through the repentance process. They may recognize past mistakes and feel bad about them, but they will never (so it seems) try to make amends. For instance, in the case of the Ronald Poelman GC talk in 1984, wouldn’t it be appropriate for someone in church leadership to say, “Hey, we really blew it there. It was an overreaction, it was well-intended, but we really blew it, and we ask for your forgiveness and promise never to try to pull the wool over your eyes again.” Not going to happen. The preferred method is to just forget about it and hope the problem goes away. Trying to maintain the facade of perfection is counterproductive. A church that can admit its mistakes would go a long way toward helping individuals who struggle with their own feelings of unworthiness to be able to forgive themselves.

Best thought I’ve read on StayLDS for some time. Bravo.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

… If anyone has the power to forgive someone permanently it seems like it would be God not some pompous men with a special title.

🙂 You know you’re going to get in trouble for that right. 🙂

Sorry, I wasn’t really trying to say that bishops, stake leaders, etc. are generally arrogant and insensitive; actually I think most of them have good intentions and are sincerely trying to do what they think is right. What I meant by this was simply that it seems kind of silly to me to think there is something magic about confessing “sins” to priesthood leaders like this as if this somehow validates your claim to divine forgiveness. Personally I think this notion and Church disciplinary actions have done much more harm than good in many cases.

[Anonymous]

DA speaks the truth.

Now I just have to find a way to get you in trouble for saying that so I don’t disappoint cwald. 😆

[Anonymous]

Oh, and I should add that I agree with cwald that the two should not be taught together. I have no problem with teaching them on back-to-back Sundays and emphasizing that they are related in a very real way, but I think we do a grave disservice to BOTH if we lump them together – both ideologically AND in practical, time-allotment terms. They each deserve a full lesson, at the very least.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

Oh, and I should add that I agree with cwald that the two should not be taught together. I have no problem with teaching them on back-to-back Sundays and emphasizing that they are related in a very real way, but I think we do a grave disservice to BOTH if we lump them together – both ideologically AND in practical, time-allotment terms. They each deserve a full lesson, at the very least.

I’m not sure how you could effectively forgive without having received forgiveness yourself. It goes back to Paul’s explanation that we love Christ because He first loved us. We only realize our capacity to emulate Him because of what He did. Separating our own quest for forgiveness (repentance) from the divine ability to freely forgive others (forgiveness) would seem to me to be teaching a pattern of behavior but not bringing about a change of heart. Just speaking from my own experience as someone who spent much of my life living both of those principles in a segrated way and never to a happy conclusion, this is how it seems to me.

I didn’t find peace until those principles became one in my own heart.

If you go back to the story of Corrie Ten Boom, she describes forgiveness in much the same way I’ve experienced it – as a gift. In my experience, it isn’t something we can do for ourselves.

From my own life: One evening I was sitting across from my offender, thinking of how much I was suffering because of his actions. I was hurt, rightly so, and angry. Suddenly, I saw the Savior kneeling in Gethsemane. The acute realization that He suffered an infinite and eternal injustice because He cared more about my salvation than about being treated fairly swept over me. Like a peace from heaven distilling, I looked at my offender and realized that I loved him more than I cared about the injustices I was suffering. More than anything I wanted him to be saved from himself, from his sins, from the guilt and sorrow that plagued him. My burden was lifted because I saw what the Savior had done for me and that allowed me to see what I could do for another.

[Anonymous]

mercyngrace, I have no disagreement with what you said – and I have no problem with linking the two and showing their closeness and inter-dependence. I just think each one is important enough and unique enough in and of itself that trying to teach them both together within the teaching structure currently available to us at church (30-40 minutes, max, at any given time) would end up shorting the attention we should pay to each of them. That’s why I would favor teaching them in separate but concurrent lessons – or together in a fireside format where there is well over an hour to address them.

I also have no problem with a lesson like the 5th Sunday I described in another post, where the focus was on not judging – and forgiveness was one of multiple things mentioned that are part of learning not to judge. However, if forgiveness is the central topic, and if we only have 30-40 minutes to teach about it . . .

[Anonymous]

edit:

I understand what you are saying.

[Anonymous]

I taught a lesson on forgiving others. I purposely forgo the whole “repentance” aspect. I used an outline from the Dalia Lama’s The Wisdom of Forgiveness. I will try to post it tonight after work.

[Anonymous]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

Personally I don’t believe that anyone really deserves to be forgiven. Sure they can stop doing whatever is perceived to be wrong, apologize, etc. but it’s not like they can go back in time and undo whatever mistakes they have already made. That’s why I see forgiveness as more of a gift from God rather than something we really earn. As far as forgiving others I think it is just part of being a charitable person (if that’s what you want to be) to not continue to hold a grudge over something in the past that you can’t really change now.

I agree completely.

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