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Hi, I haven’t written a post in a long time, but I’ve been lurking here now and again. I used to like going to church, but at the moment it feels quite painful to attend primarily priesthood, but also sunday school. It’s been almost 2 years now since I started stumbling on early church history, and all the controversy surrounding it. I have continued to study it for the past 2 years, and it’s constantly on my mind. I’m at a point where I have a very hard time with Joseph Smith / BoM / BoA etc.
Well, now to my big concern, during this time I have not talked to my wife at all. And I’m starting to feel like a hypocrite at church. Feels like I have a big hollow inside. If I could just talk to my wife, and she could understand me I’m sure things would be alot better. I’m just deathly scared of her reaction… I can just imagine how hard it would be for her, how many tears she would shed.
I’ve read much about going slow etc, I just don’t know how to even start bringin it up. The only person I’ve talked with sofar is my dad, who incidentally I learnt has also become disillusioned with the church. He was pretty open with my mum, and it has caused alot of heartache between them (and is still causing heartache).
Now it’s been 2 years, and I guess you all know what that means. Temple recommend expires this month. I’ve read the document ‘How to stay…’ several times. I’ve tried to do the mental gymnastics to be able to answer the TR questions and not feel like a liar, at this point however I feel like I cannot do it.
So I’ve got two options, either I flat out lie my way through the questions, or I need to explain to my wife why I can’t get a recommend at this time – which means opening the can of worms. Lying just isn’t an option for me, I could never do it, and don’t want to do it… Which leaves option 2.
I would really appreceiate any suggestion as to how to approach my wife, in a non threathening, loving way.
My hope is to come to a point where I can enjoy going to church, and do it on my terms. I’m quite far from that right now though…
I know others will have some great advice for you but something that spoke to me in your post was your last thought. I’d start with that when you approach your wife so she knows that ultimately you HOPE to feel differently and then begin to explain things from there. I’m so sorry. My 2 years are up in Nov. I’ll be facing the same things at that time, though my spouse is fully aware of my thinking at the moment and has been very supportive. I hope that your wife will also give you the support you need.
Porter, I know it is a scary thing. It would be easy if people and relationships never changed so we’d always know what to expect from others…but on the other hand, that would mean there is no changing for the better and for stronger relationships.
I don’t know how your wife will feel about it, but while it is a great thing you’ve been going slow…that weight and burden you carry by yourself right now needs to be addressed at some point. Giving it time like you have has hopefully been good to prevent extreme outbursts and also time to recognize the positive feelings you have. But it does seem like the TR time is a good time to address this.
Does your spouse know your dad’s feelings? Is it possible you can test the waters by sticking a toe in and first stating something like, “I talked to my dad the other day and didn’t realize that for some time, he has been disillusioned about church.”
Throw that out there, and see her reaction. If she doesn’t react too strongly, you can then go ankle deep by saying, “You know, I have to say, some of the things he told me are some valid concerns about religion and the church.”
If all is going well…the next progression is to ask if your spouse ever has doubted things about early church history or the Book of Abraham (or whatever topic you think might be safest to start with)?
You’d have to read it and determine if that approach feels natural and honest to you, but that would be one way you could kind of throw that out that you have similar thoughts.
In my experience, my talk with my wife ended in tears and weeks of disappointing comments to me. Sometimes, no matter how gentle you approach it, if it is going to be an issue…it is going to be an issue. That is part of relationships, working through issues. I don’t always raise every issue I have with my wife, because some resolve themselves. But this one doesn’t seem like it will go away on its own for you. I wish you best of luck. Keep us posted. and keep going slow
Thanks for the replies, Heber and canadiangirl. Heber13 wrote:Does your spouse know your dad’s feelings? Is it possible you can test the waters by sticking a toe in and first stating something like, “I talked to my dad the other day and didn’t realize that for some time, he has been disillusioned about church.”
Throw that out there, and see her reaction. If she doesn’t react too strongly, you can then go ankle deep by saying, “You know, I have to say, some of the things he told me are some valid concerns about religion and the church.”
She doesn’t yet, although I’ve been thinking about using that as an entry for some time now. Thing is, my dad practically got disfellowshipped a couple of weeks ago, for bringing up uncomfortable topics in HP group several times. He can still partake of sacrament, and participate in the ring when blessings are given, but nothing else. Isn’t allowed to answer questions during class, give public prayers/talks or hold a calling, and he’s not allowed to talk with people alone in the corridors. And this will be on probation for at least a year. My mum took this very hard, she was the YW president, but since the letter came from the stake pres, she didn’t go to church for several weeks, and asked to be released from her calling – first time back today. My wife thought it very strange that mum didn’t come to church… and I’ve thought several times to bring up the real story behind it, but haven’t had the guts yet.
I believe that no matter how gently I bring it up, she will be heart broken. Family wise we are very happy right now, have moved to a new house, everything is going great. My wife often wonders, what will be our big trial – as we see many couples around us struggling in their marrige / economy etc, etc. My heart sinks as she’s talking like this, as I know that what I’m carrying will probably be our biggest trial yet…
I’ve decided that I wont be throwing any of the facts that are troubling me in her face, just try to gently lay out that I have a problem with many things that happened in the early church, to a degree that it has shaken my faith to it’s core, I’m living by hope now and trying to work out things. I will offer that I would like to go through some of the issues with her, so she can understand me and we could work our way through this together – but I have no desire to harm her faith, so if she’s not comfortable discussing this I won’t bring up the issues.
Just her knowing that I’m struggling, and to what degree I’m struggling, I think would go a long way to make me feel more whole. I’m so tired of being afraid to talk about my inner feelings, thoughts and struggles with my wife. I feel like I am an empty shell towards her at times. I play way too much computer games atm, which I never used to do, just because it gives me a way to flee reality and my boiling emotions for a while…
Try the sandwich effect. Take the first slice of bread and let her know some of the things you do like about the church, then slide in the meat and let her know some of the concerns you have. End with the 2nd slice of bread affirming her and the good in the church. My question in regards to this thread is, “When did having doubts and questions become a negative thing in the church?” When my parents joined the church in Germany before WWII and when I was little growing up in Salt Lake in the late 50’s, we were encouraged to question and challenge things in the church. Even Brigham Young said something about his biggest fear being that the saints would accept everything they said blindly. Hugh B. Brown, one of my favorite apostles said, “He who has never doubted, has never thought!” I heard LeGrand Richards, another favorite apostle talk about any church that cannot stand up to interogation is built on a weak foundation.
I think the internet changed everything because more could be found and most never read the church history volumes or journal of discourses. Only positive snipets were quoted from them in the Ensign, or Instructor. Your bringing up your doubts is like a friend asking your wife if she would want to know whether her husband was cheating on her or not. Alot of women, just don’t want to know as long as he was good with the kids, paid the bills and took her out once in a while. If she caught a disease from you or caught you in the act, then she would have to face the truth. We all know the line from Jack Nicoloson “You can’t handle the truth.”
The question I asked myself on my mission was: “Do you want to live your life based on truth and reality, or just live your life in a bubble that will burst someday. The problem is if you pull the rug out from under her, have you got anything of equal or greater worth to offer her in place of it? My dad used to tell Christians from other churches that if they had something better to offer him, he would join their church. He always told me that he joined the church on faith, but with the thought that if he ever found out it was false he could leave.
My husband and all my kids have left the church. I am presently inactive and visit other churches, but still believe in many lds teachings. The main anchor I have had is my faith in Christ and that has kept me stable. I remember when my oldest son suddenly backed out of going on a mission. I was so disappointed. He came to me and said, “Mom, I can tell you are disappointed in me for not going on this mission. I thought I could go and come back as a cool RM at BYU and be hot for the girls, but I read the BofM sincerely, and prayed, but never got an answer. I can’t go for the wrong reasons.” I told him how proud I was of him for that and his integrity meant much more to me than ever going on a mission. He is a wonderful young man to this day even though he is agnostic.
If your wife is a sincere honest woman, I pray she will be empathetic and understand how painful this has all been for you and love you unconditionally.
Bridget
Porter Rockwell wrote:…I used to like going to church, but at the moment it feels quite painful to attend primarily priesthood, but also sunday school… I’m at a point where I have a very hard time with Joseph Smith / BoM / BoA etc….now to my big concern, during this time I have not talked to my wife at all. And I’m starting to feel like a hypocrite at church. Feels like I have a big hollow inside. If I could just talk to my wife, and she could understand me I’m sure things would be alot better. I’m just deathly scared of her reaction… I can just imagine how hard it would be for her, how many tears she would shed…I would really appreceiate any suggestion as to how to approach my wife, in a non threathening, loving way.
Personally I don’t know if there is really any completely painless way to approach this in most cases. This very issue makes me understand some of the angst suffered by many New Order Mormons that are determined to just suck it up and keep quiet about their lack of belief in the Church mostly to avoid upsetting their family. I can’t say I blame them because the fact is that TBMs are often not exactly the most tolerant or understanding people around when family members they just expect to believe in the Church forever don’t agree with some things about it anymore. In fact, there have been more than a few divorces primarily over this kind of thing.
I finally broke down several months ago and told my wife that I just don’t believe the Church is really what it claims to be. I told her that I like the members in the ward and don’t mind going to Church but I just don’t believe everything they say is the gospel truth and to be honest I just don’t have much confidence that they really know what they are talking about half the time. I didn’t get into any hard-core anti-Mormon arguments just a few things that are common knowledge like the polygamy and racial discrimination that bothered me. As expected, it didn’t go over very well and she absolutely freaked out and threatened to divorce me but after a few days the dust settled and things mostly returned to normal.
What makes my wife’s reaction all the more disturbing to me is that she isn’t exactly the stereotypical Molly Mormon. She has been inactive half her life and always tells me about her ex-boyfriends and how she used to like to go out drinking in bars with her non-Mormon friends. I always think to myself that I don’t really want to hear about your old boyfriends anymore and I don’t really want to talk about my old girlfriends either for that matter, why do we need to keep digging up the past? Anyway, I have always been more interested in religion than her maybe in part because I served a mission. She doesn’t really know the first thing about the real nuts-and-bolts of Mormon doctrine and seems to think there are mostly 2 doctrines: the WoW, and “families are forever.” She might have read some of the Book of Mormon but I know she hasn’t ever read much of the Bible, D&C, or Church history .
To me it shows just how deep the Mormon programming runs sometimes to see that someone who from my perspective doesn’t really know what the Church is all about or where it came from now looks at me like I’m the bad guy simply because I had the audacity to question it. I don’t know if my own marriage will survive these religious differences or not. I’ll do what I can to try to make it work but if it doesn’t work out I figure it’s just as well because even if the overall pain isn’t really worth it and it would probably be easier to just go along with the Church I just don’t want to live the rest of my life that way and would rather just take my chances being myself rather than trying to be what someone else wants me to be.
It sounds like you have been very mindful of your spouses feelings the past couple of years. But, there does come a point when you have to talk. My DH dropped it all on me in one day, we have both agreed that probably wasn’t the best choice. 
One of the parts I regret of my husband’s disaffection is that he did not feel like he could talk to me at all when he was going through it. Looking back, it would have made a world of difference if he would have sat down with me and had a ‘heart to heart’, in a way that I would have felt like he was asking me to help him, that he needed me to help, he didn’t want to go through it alone. Even if the outcome was the same, it would have been much better to have gone on the journey with him at the same time. Right now, I am going through it by myself. He has already been gone from the church for 8 years, and I am barely beginning, and it is difficult.
Keep the communication open, and let your wife know that no matter what you love her and value who she is as LDS, I would bear testimony in whatever way you can of the common things you do believe in, but let her know what else is bothering you. Now that my husband and I have started talking about some of the issues, we find it easiest if he just mentions casually that he has a hard time with the whatever history or doctrine, that he read about it in X place, and he doesn’t see how it fits in with X doctrine. Then he just leaves it out there for me to mull over. No expectations of what conclusions he expects me to come up with.
Good luck!
Porter – my TR expired in March. I’m living on borrowed time – especially considering my current church calling. Eventually I will run out of excuses and ways to avoid the BP… I know it’s not typical, but I actually had a good experience when I finally came out and told my wife my true feelings. I was a disgruntled stage 4 mormon for more than 10 years! My wife was very understanding and, to be honest, we have a much better relationship now than ever before. We are much more open and honest about our spiritual concerns and spiritual growth. (My wife turned out to be a stage 5 mormon and I didn’t even know it!) Where we use to NEVER talk about church and spiritual stuff (because I had issues with the church and didn’t want her knowing about it) now we talk ALL the time. I am much more interested and excited about the spiritual journey, and now we can discuss it and I have someone to bounce ideas off of. I wish I had NOT waiting ten years to have the conversation with my wife…but, I know this is not the case most times, and I can only wish you the best.
DA – I loved your story, and, not to make light of your situation, but I laughed out loud when I read this part.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:She doesn’t really know the first thing about the real nuts-and-bolts of Mormon doctrine and seems to think there are mostly 2 doctrines: the WoW, and “families are forever.”
Man, so true of many of our loved ones.
i am going to echo what some of hte others have said, include some positive things that you like about the church and go slow, just starting with one issue that you have with the church. it seems to me that a good way to open the discussion is on a Sunday after church, to bring up a lesson from that day. it feels like every single sunday someone talks about something i disagree with, lol. so using that as a starting point seems fairly easy. i would also add something from my personal experience. my disillusionment process was no secret from my DH, he witnessed the whole messy thing. but i didn’t approach things with him in a very tactful way when i talked with him about the problems i was having. i would often start the conversation from a combative stance, which put him on the defensive and led to fights. it was the wrong way to do things! he also told me later that when i brought this stuff up, he would get so worried that my new viewpoints meant i was going to leave him. he was afraid that my pain and anger with the church = pain and anger toward him. so if you talk to your wife i would make sure to always mention how much you love her, and that your changing views about the church doesn’t mean you’re having changing views about your relationship with her.
all my best wishes!
DA, have you ever considered that your wife viewed you as the anchor in her otherwise chaotic life – and now she feels that anchor is slipping away? I’m not saying that’s “fair” or anything. I’m just wondering if it’s much less “programming” and much more a need for safety and security.
Porter, that’s important to consider – knowing nothing about your wife. Sharing concerns can be traumatic for those who view us as an integral part of their security.
I have no way to know how you should approach your wife about your concerns – or even if you should. If you are comfortable praying – or meditating – or just thinking deeply about it, do that – and then go with your gut, mind and heart. However you approach it, approach it with HER foremost in your mind.
That’s all I’ve got, but you will be in my prayers.
cwald wrote:…DA – I loved your story, and, not to make light of your situation, but I laughed out loud when I read this part.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:She doesn’t really know the first thing about the real nuts-and-bolts of Mormon doctrine and seems to think there are mostly 2 doctrines: the WoW, and “families are forever.”
Man, so true of many of our loved ones.
I laugh at it myself sometimes because otherwise I would cry when I wonder how I ended up in this situation almost on the verge of divorce over religion, and I don’t even hate the Church at all in fact I like many things about it and have fond memories of most of my experience with it; I just wish they would back off and leave me alone sometimes.
Old-Timer wrote:DA, have you ever considered that your wife viewed you as the anchor in her otherwise chaotic life – and now she feels that anchor is slipping away?
I’m not saying that’s “fair” or anything. I’m just wondering if it’s much less “programming” and much more a need for safety and security.
I guess it’s too late to worry about that now that the cat’s out of the bag but I did think long and hard about how she would react for the last few years until I finally felt like it was worth the risk to come clean and see what happens.
Just from my experience with my husband bringing anything up like what you talk about would make him pretty upset. Is it possible or would it help to tell her that you don’t feel good about getting a temple recommend with out going into details of why? I think you might consider a qualitative cost-benefit analysis for the different courses of action you can take in this situation: On one hand, being completely open will make you feel more genuine and understood, but what cost do you anticipate to your marriage? To your wife’s estimony? Is it worth it? Being quiet will cause personal angst, but will presumably protect your wife from faith-detracting ideas. Is the personal angst frlom keeping doubts to yourself worth the positive impact on your wife.
For me, I’m learning to keep quiet about those things that bother me, to try to find alternate reasons for living the commandments that bring me peace. I do share things now and then with my wife , but they tend to be non-doctrinal concerns — more about policy and procedures that are local in nature. That helps me vent without doing any damage to my wife’s belief in the basic principles.
It’s a tough one — part of the reason it’s hard to unMormon yourself. You have all these structures and people around you that you might end up damaging in new, unexpected and undesireable ways if you’re too candid about your concerns about the Church.
One approach you could take is just to let the TR expire. Just avoid the issue until your wife pressures you for reasons and then give one concern. Or put it off by saying you don’t feel spiritually ready yet; give you some time to build up some aspect of your testimony that are suffering. You could link your Dad’s experience with the Church to your current feelings about it…something like, and pass it off as temporary.
Also, there are different shades of meaning — you might ask Ray to “parse” the TR questions if he thinks that’s honorable. By parsing, analyzing the meaning of the words. You may find you can answer them truthfully given the shades of meaning in the words of the questions.
For example, “Do you believe Joseph Smith is a prophet?” (if that’s a current TR question — my last one was a year and a half and ago, so I’ve forgotten the questions). Believe has different shades of meaning. For example, it can mean that you accept it, without necessarily claiming sure knowledge. I’m willing to accept that he might have been a prophet, and that all the controversy around him is historical conjecture and hokus, or that he made mistakes just as Moses did. I might also have doubts, but am willing to move forward as if he was a prophet when I get asked that question. He did write a large volume of highly profound statements in D&C and the BoM that I think can be considered prophetic or inspired, even if he had a tainted past…etc.
So, I wouldn’t feel I was being dishonest in answering that quesion affirmatively.
Hi Porter, it’s a tough situation and I wish that people didn’t have to go through it. I can say if I knew then what I know now I would stress a couple of points to my wife. 1) This “faith crisis” experience that many of us have and are going through is fairly common in the church. After my wife learned that from some local leaders she was a little less tormented. She had been trying to figure out why of all people it was just me — what had I done.
2) I would frame everything in terms of my personal expectations — not “truth” or what the church “is”. I would say things like: “it was always my impression that Joseph had a single and solitary clear reason for going to the grove – to ask which existing church was the true one. Now I’m really puzzled because I read something that Joseph wrote in 1832 – that before he went to pray he had already determined that all the churches were wrong, and he went to pray for forgiveness. I don’t know what to make of this, it twists everything around for me.” Of course we all have our hot-spots. I would probably also say something like “I had never imagined that Joseph married so many women, and that some of them were already married, that doesn’t fit into my personal concept of who he was. I don’t know how to make sense of that.”
I would also try VERY hard to avoid the avalanch. I know it’s hard, the real problem often is not a few isolated questions, but the combined weight of so many. Our loved ones often cannot and will not deal with the landslide, so it’s best to not let it come down all at once. Very quickly the attitude can turn from “he has sincere questions” to “he has already made up his mind and is mentally out of the church.”
Remember, it is very very important to say all the good things about the church that you can. How it teaches us to be honest, charitable, focused on service & families, etc, etc. You really cannot stress this side too much, it often soothes and cools the burning that is often felt from hearing doubt expressed. In the end I think loved ones are often looking for a trajectory or a plotted course. They want to know where things will end up. If you can give assurance that you really want to stay with the church I think that will help a lot.
Wishing you all the best.
When I first told my DH, I was depressed. I was depressed mostly because I tortured myself over wondering if DH would stay with me or not if I told him my true feelings, and also because I sincerely felt like I had been cheated by the church. So my first approach was through many tears and a honest desire in wanting to believe. He gave me a blessing to be able to find truth. A few months later, after he came back from Iraq, I had completely stopped wearing garments. I was much happier and content in searching for good but not necessarily believing in much of what the church taught. I was honest. I explained why I was changing and that I didn’t have all the answers and that I was still a good person who wanted to be with no one other than DH for the rest of my life and beyond We got married at 20 and are both 24 now. He married a convert, even though his parents and friends supposedly told him that they had a higher chance of leaving the church. He told me he was worried about this before we even got married. He wasn’t too surprised when this all started happening. For one it was the scary prophecy he had heard his whole life and secondly he always knew I was a rebellious spirit. I knew I had to be honest and hoped he would come around. Living a lie is just to difficult! For me it was anyway.
Overall the best approach is an honest one. It really really helps if you are able to share your changing positive outlook on life with your spouse. When you are happy with where you are it will show through your actions. Being a happily changed spouse, who is still caring …. helpful and full of love is better than a depressed frantic angry spouse who doesn’t have their feelings thought out. Be confident not arrogant. Be loving and remember and understand why they might react in certain ways … and have some patience with it all. Good Luck!
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