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LaLaLove wrote:
When I first told my DH, I was depressed. I was depressed mostly because I tortured myself over wondering if DH would stay with me or not if I told him my true feelings, and also because I sincerely felt like I had been cheated by the church.
There is a risk of this happening — your spouse wondering if they want to stay with you after you share your doubts. After my first trial of faith about 4 years into our marriage, my I told my wife I would stop paying tithing and would no longer be putting myself out for the Church, although I would attend now and then.
She told me she didn’t want to be with me anymore if I wasn’t going to be faithful in the Church. Fortunately, a good friend of hers in the Church, married to a non-member, told her that she felt love should transcend the Church or my activity. My wife stayed with me, and eventually I made it back to full activity. However, I think LaLaLove’s initial fear is a valid one based on my experience. You have to consider how your spouse might react; and if there is risk they may leave because you’re no longer the gateway to salvation/priesthood holder she wants, you have to consider just how candid you’re going to be. We all have to make sacrifices in our marriages; perhaps a certain level of activity in the Church is one of them…..
Thanks for all the great replies. You’ve all given me very good perspectives and lots of things to think about. SilentDawning wrote:I think you might consider a qualitative cost-benefit analysis for the different courses of action you can take in this situation:
On one hand, being completely open will make you feel more genuine and understood, but what cost do you anticipate to your marriage? To your wife’s estimony? Is it worth it? Being quiet will cause personal angst, but will presumably protect your wife from faith-detracting ideas. Is the personal angst frlom keeping doubts to yourself worth the positive impact on your wife.
There are so many unknowns in this equation. How long can I hold out before I explode… or will it get easier with time to ‘fake’ it. Put everything on a shelf and just go through the motions. Have you seen the film Equilibrium, where everyone takes pills to shut of all emotions? The thought of ignoring all the doubts, feels like I would try to go back and conform to a society around me who are all taking these mind numbing pills… Or plug into the matrix again and pretend like there was no matrix…
The cost of telling my wife is hard to know, ideally it would strengthen our relationship, and we would be able to have deep and meaningful conversations again (after some time of heartache I’m sure), and we could try to work out things together. The worst would be her totally freaking out and eventually leaving me / causing an uproar in the extended family etc… So there is a big spectrum there of what that cost could be.
I don’t feel it’s a cost that her testimony/faith would be changing. I’ve long since left my TBM testimony and I can honestly say I don’t want to go back, the sad thing is that I am on this journey alone – I would more than anything want to have her with me on this journey, wherever it leads…
Currently my wife is in one of those ‘spirit has pricked her heart with guilt’ states where she feels the whole family needs to do better – to faithfully do homevenings, scripture study etc. Incidentally this comes at a point where all the issues has bubbled up to the surface in my mind, and is haunting me all the time, due to the issues my parents are going through. So it’s a bit of a difficult time…
Orson, thanks for your suggestions. I like the ideas you give, but I’m very afraid that I won’t be able to hold off the avalanch after I’ve started talking – but I’m acting out the conversation in my head quite often now, trying to think of what to say and what not to – so hopefully it will work. I have just not talked anything meaningful about the gospel or church with my wife in a very long time, so it feels uncomfortable just bringing up those subjects – I’m not sure I can do it in a normal conversation like way.
Old-Timer wrote:Porter, that’s important to consider – knowing nothing about your wife. Sharing concerns can be traumatic for those who view us as an integral part of their security.
I have no way to know how you should approach your wife about your concerns – or even if you should. If you are comfortable praying – or meditating – or just thinking deeply about it, do that – and then go with your gut, mind and heart. However you approach it, approach it with HER foremost in your mind.
Thanx for that insight Ray. I am thinking of how she will react, and how it would be if the situation were opposite all the time. I love my wife dearly, above anything, and REALLY don’t want to hurt her. That’s why I’ve put off talking with her for so long. But I want us to have a whole, healthy relationship, I don’t want to have secrets from my wife.
Roadlesstraveled, thank you for your personal experience. I really wish we could have walked this path together me and my wife. 2 yrs ago when I started stumbling on to things I brought up a few things with her (back then I was very much TBM), she was horrified and very upset and clearly showed that she did not want to know anymore about it. I reacted in a different way that I felt I needed to know everything, after all if the church was true, and we give up so much for it, it should hold up to scrutiny. But her initial reactions made me do all my studies on my own, and never approach her with it again…
There is more that I would like to write, but I need to sleep… Went to bed at 11, but lay awake in bed thinking until 0.30, then went to read on this forum and write a post. Hopefully I’ll be able to fall asleep now (1:20), just to many thoughts flying around, and to few sheep.
Porter, I know this is a tough thing. From personal experience, let me just tell you that I strongly feel it is important to love your wife, tell her you love her, and then tell her again. Make a good foundation of trust and love, that makes things like this possible to talk about.
Without a good foundation, even little things can erupt into big problems in the relationship. If you don’t have that foundation yet, then you may consider working on that before worrying about talking about your feelings.
Also be patient. I spent almost 2 years reading, studying, meditating, praying about how to handle these feelings of mine, and went through the gamit of emotions…guilt that I was doubting the church, anger that the church didn’t teach me things, impatience towards others at church, and other stage 4 emotions. So when I talked to my wife in a 10 minute conversation, it is not fair to think she’ll immediately see the same things it took me to settle on over a 2 yr period.
Being patient, even when my FIL was having very direct words with me, patience was critical. I recognized their effort to come talk to me is how they care enough to try to talk to me about it. We have to realize others will react when we tell them our thoughts which are not orthodox, and we have to let them react. We can’t expect them not to react. I was able to keep my cool through their reaction (I did get emotional but kept it under control), and not make outbursts or rash emotional actions that damaged things further, or get caught saying things you can’t take back. Just let the chips fall where they may, and you know what…my spouse said this:
Quote:I’m going to try to be supportive of you and your search for truth in any way you choose.
Sometimes we underestimate our spouses, and fear what their reactions will be.
Not everyone reacts the same way, so be careful what your expectations are when you talk to them, but the foundation is love and truth.
I just thought it might help to share my experience with you on it.
Heber13 wrote:Porter, I know this is a tough thing.
From personal experience, let me just tell you that I strongly feel it is important to love your wife, tell her you love her, and then tell her again. Make a good foundation of trust and love, that makes things like this possible to talk about.
Without a good foundation, even little things can erupt into big problems in the relationship. If you don’t have that foundation yet, then you may consider working on that before worrying about talking about your feelings.
Also be patient. I spent almost 2 years reading, studying, meditating, praying about how to handle these feelings of mine, and went through the gamit of emotions…guilt that I was doubting the church, anger that the church didn’t teach me things, impatience towards others at church, and other stage 4 emotions. So when I talked to my wife in a 10 minute conversation, it is not fair to think she’ll immediately see the same things it took me to settle on over a 2 yr period.
Being patient, even when my FIL was having very direct words with me, patience was critical. I recognized their effort to come talk to me is how they care enough to try to talk to me about it. We have to realize others will react when we tell them our thoughts which are not orthodox, and we have to let them react. We can’t expect them not to react. I was able to keep my cool through their reaction (I did get emotional but kept it under control), and not make outbursts or rash emotional actions that damaged things further, or get caught saying things you can’t take back. Just let the chips fall where they may, and you know what…my spouse said this:
Quote:I’m going to try to be supportive of you and your search for truth in any way you choose.
Sometimes we underestimate our spouses, and fear what their reactions will be.
Not everyone reacts the same way, so be careful what your expectations are when you talk to them, but the foundation is love and truth.
I just thought it might help to share my experience with you on it.
Heber, this is so good and so true. It took me 10 years to adjust and stop trying to change my son when I found out he had a same-sex attraction. It takes alot of patience and love for those on both sides of this issue and the many issues in the church. Staying calm, loving and ‘seek first to understand and then to be understood,’ helps alot.
Porter — I have an idea to share. Bear with analogy, it gets spiritual eventually. I’ve been fascinated by business men who are successful by embracing situation which entail risk — real estate investors, entrepreneurs, etcetera. I’ve studied many of them and have taken courses from them as well.
One principle they follow is to try to reduce uncertainty by doing tests and pilots before committing any funds where there there is a lot of uncertainty. So, a real-estate investor might place an ad in the paper advertising homes for rent in such and such a location at such and such a price. He doesn’t have any homes, but refers people who call him to existing rentals in that area so as not to be committing fraud or false advertisig. In the process, he learns about the potential of that area for qualified tenants, and understands the key reactions of potential renters before he even invests a dime. If he gets a negative reaction to his ad, such as no calls at all, he won’t invest in that area. If his phone rings off the hook, then he feels more comfortable about making the investment as he realizes an important variable is on his side.
So, in your case, how about doing a pilot with your wife. Explain the circumstances of someone online who has a husband who is becoming disaffected with the Church. There are people here who have such experiences and can help, I’m sure. Ask your wife how she thinks “the average, active, LDS woman might react when hearing such news”, and see what she says. Although you’re asking her what the average person might think, she will probably be telling you volumes about her own personal reaction if she was in such a situation.
This way you’ll understand the landscape of her likely eaction and can more effectively do your qualitative cost-benefit analysis.
By the way, submerging or otherwise dealing with your feellings is part of marriage, I’ve found. There are issues in my marriage such as housekeeping that make me see red. And they are as important as spiritual matters to me. But I have learned that to keep my marriage going, have to deal with these probems without vocalizing them. It’s hard sometime, and yes, I have been known to blow-up about them when all I wanted was the house clean. But I’ve made adjustments, such as having an area in the house with is mine and mine only, and it’s spacious. I retreat into that area when housekeeping makes me want to blow my stack. I’m also training my oldest daughter to help each other to make cleaning more enjoyable when I’m about to lose my composure over it.
If you feel the potential costs are greater than sharing your doubts, could you find your own middle way of supporting Church ideals without driving yourself nuts? I have my own ideas, but I learned long ago that suggesting specific practices doesn’t usually lead to acceptance by others — you know your situation best.
The following thread is focused on using my marriage to discuss how I feel about the Church – but it also describes how I view my wife and our marriage. Perhaps it will help in some way, Porter: “
My Marriage as a Metaphor for My Church” ( http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=238&start=0&hilit=metaphor Heber13 wrote:Porter, I know this is a tough thing.
From personal experience, let me just tell you that I strongly feel it is important to love your wife, tell her you love her, and then tell her again. Make a good foundation of trust and love, that makes things like this possible to talk about.
I think this is good advice — and it triggered another thought — imagine what it would be like if after sharing your doubts about the Church, you became a much better husband? There is a site called marriagebuilders.com that descibes emotional needs most couples have, and provides a questionnaire to help you identify your wife’s emotional needs. I did this exercise and realized my wife had needs I wasn’t aware of. (It’s an exercise for even happily married couples.) I started meeting those needs I discovered in my wife’s questionnaire responses, and it was good for our marriage. This is one way you can strengthen your marriage in spite of making a withdrawal in sharing your doubts. For example, if your wife has a high need for financial support, you might get another job to bring in more money in the family, which might leave less time for Church matters, but would also strengthen your marriage. That way you can have a bit of a reprieve while still helping your marriage. I use this only as an example of how meeting one of your wife’s important emotional needs better can strenghen your marriage, in spite of the withdrawal you make in sharing your doubts.
cakelady wrote:he was afraid that my pain and anger with the church = pain and anger toward him. so if you talk to your wife i would make sure to always mention how much you love her, and that your changing views about the church doesn’t mean you’re having changing views about your relationship with her.
CL, that’s some excellent advice. One of the more common bits of advice on Faces East is to learn to separate marriage issues from church issues. This can be very difficult for a lot of people because the church is so intertwined in their lives. It’s important to remember that your marriage is an entity separate and apart from the church. Sadly, too many people find out when they reach this stage that the church was really the only thing they had in common and the only glue that held them together. I suspect many of these folks didn’t date very long and take the time to get to know their prospective mates before deciding to marry. Porter, I sincerely hope that isn’t your situation, and I hope you’ll be able to find peace.
Another thing to consider is that we all have a strong need and desire to be accepted, especially by those closest to us. I wonder if this need for acceptance is part of the reason you haven’t shared your feelings with your wife and why you’re afraid of her reaction. I realize this may not work for everyone, but not sharing your feelings with your wife is an option. There are several people (myself included) who managed to move to stage 5 and find paradigms and ways to make the church work for us without ever sharing anything with our loved ones. From reading your opening post, it sounds like this isn’t an option for you, especially if you haven’t worked out a way to answer the TR questions honestly. Again, good luck to you in these uncertain circumstances.
Steve-hpias wrote:One of the more common bits of advice on Faces East is to learn to separate marriage issues from church issues. This can be very difficult for a lot of people because the church is so intertwined in their lives. It’s important to remember that your marriage is an entity separate and apart from the church. Sadly, too many people find out when they reach this stage that the church was really the only thing they had in common and the only glue that held them together.
Steve, this is good advice, but at first impulse, it is not really what the church teaches, and in that is the threat.
They seem to hammer it in our heads that you don’t go to heaven alone…it is with your spouse. I think that is where a lot of angst and reaction from spouses comes from…it is a threat to their own salvation to think their spouse is not going to take them to the big temple in the sky.
I have not been involved in Faces East, but really should check it out. I just know that it is not an easy thing to sell that idea because it seems to suggest the marriage will not be an eternal one…and that is not the goal.
How can those of us who have spouses that see the church different from our unorthodox views really see the situation from their perspective? Is it realistic to think that we can get them to see it from our perspective?
I have been a moderator at FacesEast for a couple of years. It is actually the first place on the internet that I “landed” for support when my church world fell apart underneath me (crisis of faith nearly destroyed my marriage, still shaky at times). So that community always holds a special place in my heart. BUT…
You have to remember FacesEast is mostly targeted to serve the needs of faithful and more traditional members. It is mostly for the still-believing spouse, to help them figure out how to sort their marriage out with their spouse who is having a crisis of faith.
Keep that in mind. It is even more protective of traditional views even than StayLDS. There are great people there though. Prairie_Chuck, the site owner, is a bona fide Mormon Saint (like catholic saints).
FacesEast is also focused almost exclusively on relationship discussions, not as much on the broader issues of faith. Questions about doctrine and belief come up though.
I’m a little late to the party, but here’s what I think and some additional questions: 1 – a lapsed TR isn’t such a bad thing. Is there a way to just let it go for a while until you feel more prepared to deal with it?
2 – what are your specific TR questions that are troubling? If they are belief rather than behavior related, then I would suggest considering an honest answer that is optimistic, but truthful. I imagine you’ve already considered this, but how about, “To be honest, I struggle with doubts about some of these things – the restoration, the role of prophets – but I [insert what you do believe or feel], and I continue to live the commandments.” No guarantees that gets you a TR, but it at least could be honest.
3 – it’s easy in being disillusioned to get clear about beliefs you’ve discarded. It’s tougher to get clear on what you still believe. And as I alluded in #2, there are different levels of belief. You can doubt, but still act in faith. That’s a higher level of belief (that IMO should meet the standard) than doubting and acting on the doubt or actually disbelieving. If you can be clear about what you DO believe, you can focus on commonalities rather than differences whenever you are in a worship setting, when you discuss these things with your wife, or when you are talking with your SP in a TR interview. For example, I can clearly say that I love the teachings of Jesus. I find them deep and meaningful. And I find the Plan of Salvation very comforting. Just a few examples to think about. It’s too easy to focus on what we don’t accept rather than on what we do believe, feel, and act on. There’s room for both, but common ground always makes interactions go more smoothly.
hawkgrrrl wrote:I’m a little late to the party, but here’s what I think and some additional questions:
1 – a lapsed TR isn’t such a bad thing. Is there a way to just let it go for a while until you feel more prepared to deal with it?
2 – what are your specific TR questions that are troubling? If they are belief rather than behavior related, then I would suggest considering an honest answer that is optimistic, but truthful. I imagine you’ve already considered this, but how about, “To be honest, I struggle with doubts about some of these things – the restoration, the role of prophets – but I [insert what you do believe or feel], and I continue to live the commandments.” No guarantees that gets you a TR, but it at least could be honest.
3 – it’s easy in being disillusioned to get clear about beliefs you’ve discarded. It’s tougher to get clear on what you still believe. And as I alluded in #2, there are different levels of belief. You can doubt, but still act in faith. That’s a higher level of belief (that IMO should meet the standard) than doubting and acting on the doubt or actually disbelieving. If you can be clear about what you DO believe, you can focus on commonalities rather than differences whenever you are in a worship setting, when you discuss these things with your wife, or when you are talking with your SP in a TR interview. For example, I can clearly say that I love the teachings of Jesus. I find them deep and meaningful. And I find the Plan of Salvation very comforting. Just a few examples to think about. It’s too easy to focus on what we don’t accept rather than on what we do believe, feel, and act on. There’s room for both, but common ground always makes interactions go more smoothly.
I think this is wise advice, particularly since number 1 was the same suggestion I made earlier (just kidding, the other points are great). I’d like to extend point number 3 above.
If you listen to the podcasts, there is one where a faithful member started having doubts about Jesus Christ and whether the priesthood really had any power. He said so in an interview to determine worthiness to ordain his son to he priesthood. Net result — he wasn’t allowed to ordain him. I got the feeling this brother would’ve rather emphasized the positive aspects of his interaction with Christ indicating that he believes in the principles Jesus shared, and knowledge that Jesus lived brings him comfort, or something similiar. I think his words were “this Church is where I believe the Lord has led me, and where I belong” which was true, notwithstanding his doubts about the priesthood, for example.
I filed that one away as a keeper in case I’m ever in that position. Perhaps this can help you get through a TR interview and keep you wife happy….
One potential problem I’ve found in temple recommend interview settings is that leaders may not be properly equipped or have the time to deal with anything other than simple “yes/no” answers. I had one priesthood leader ask me to schedule a separate appointment once when I started expanding on a certain question (honestly I can’t remember which one now) because he felt it would take too long to answer and there was a line of people waiting outside the office for their turn. It might be helpful to set up a pre-TR meeting with the priesthood leader conducting the interview and explain at the time of the request what some of your concerns are. That way, he can come to the meeting prepared to answer your concerns with more than just platitudes. Good luck! Hi, thanks everyone for your support and great insight. Here is an update on my situation. I was not thinking of bringing up any of my concerns with my wife, but one evening 2 weeks ago, the conversation was such that I could not avoid it. So I plunged in and told my wife about my dad and went from there and also brought up that I have serious doubts without going into any of the facts. She was devastated, there were many tears. We discussed until late in the night until all tears dried up. Next day I stayed home from work, my wife felt ill and stayed in bed most of the day while I played with the kids. After a couple of days things got a lot better. We’ve talked a little about some things after that but not much. We’ve had some very good days, my wife has told me that she sees a big difference in me after my secret is out, that I seem more happy and like a burden is off my shoulders (and I do feel a lot happier).
Last Sunday the bishopric came and asked us for new temple interview (which will happen the coming Sunday), since they knew they run out. I talked with my wife and said I really don’t feel like I can answer the way it’s expected – this brought a new night of lots of tears and distress. My wife feels it’s too early to let anyone else know, before we have processed this more ourselves. And I can understand her completely, who knows what balls will set in motion… So I’ve pretty much decided that I will lie my way through the questions, even though I feel horrible doing this, just to give us more time to process this, and let my wife come to terms with my disillusionment in her own time.
Right now I focus on taking each day as it comes, and try to express as much love to my wife and family as much as I can.
May God bless you in this, Porter. Just a suggestion:
If the temple recommend questions that are at issue for you are “belief / testimony” questions, one possible approach is saying something at the beginning like, “I am trying to understand everything better and have questions, but I want to be able to attend the temple so I can have the blessings of contemplation and prayer there, as well.” Then, when it comes to the individual belief / testimony questions, honestly saying, “I’m trying” – instead of “yes” or “no”. (That is my answer to the honesty question. I try, but I’m not sure I can say I am honest in every dealing with everyone, so I say, “I try my hardest.”)
Do you think your Bishop would understand and accept that? What about your wife? Is it “true” for you?
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