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I don’t want to derail this thread, so I simply will say that we both KNOW the sun will rise tomorrow. It is scientific fact. If we don’t see it because of cloud coverage, we still know it rose. That might not have been true thousands of years ago, but it is true now. Also, if it doesn’t rise tomorrow, we won’t know it, because we will be dead. The same goes for flipping a light switch. If the light doesn’t go on, we know why – and we take action to fix the factual problem. We don’t pray for the light to go on; we buy a lightbulb.
I am NOT trying to say anything other than it is important to use examples of real faith, not knowledge, when we create analogies to faith.
What you shared in your last comment did exactly that – use a good example of what faith really is: belief in something experienced spiritually but not seen or provable physically.squarepeg wrote:
AmyJ wrote:The principle that saved my sanity I learned here –
I am not expected to “see” perfectly – in fact, I am expected to “see” darkly.The fact that I know see that I don’t see everything clearly is a boon that was granted to me at the tender age of 28 (plus a few years). It also gives me the freedom to experiment to see what I do “see” and what works for me. I can relate to this 100%. I sometimes feel lonely, though, when in a group of TBMs who all feel that they see perfectly and believe we have the fullness of the Gospel, while I’m alone in feeling that it’s still and always will be a work in progress.
Yup.
I mentally tell myself with the more extreme ones that a) they are talking themselves into it and we are the audience, or b) that is a part of their faith narrative they feel like sharing. Neither of those views means that I have to adopt it as my own. It also means that I have the responsibility as a divergent thinker to choose my words carefully – both in terms of accidently setting them off into a crises of their own, but also for my social self preservation.
I have been known to mentally chant “It’s not that simple.” over in my head a few times while they do their thing…
squarepeg wrote:
I had faith all my life that a God-type being cared for me personally, because that had always seemed to be the case. Because it had always been the case, the probability of it continuing to be the case in the future seemed high and my faith seemed justified. Then I had an experience where I went for over a year of doing all that I understood was required and yet feeling no divine presence at all. So now my faith in that concept of God listening to my prayers or being “there” for me, is pretty weak, because in my mind the statistical likelihood of God being there for me tomorrow or the next day has decreased significantly.
Just world hypothesis supposes that good things will happen to good people and bad things to bad people. It is likely to be held by people who have enjoyed healthy, happy, moderately sheltered childhoods.
People that experience hard childhoods would have a difficult time with this hypothesis. It does not match their lived experience.
As much as I was unprepared for the tragedy and hardship that befell our little family, I cannot blame my parents for giving me a childhood of relative safety, security, and love. We should all be so lucky.
Roy wrote:
Just world hypothesis supposes that good things will happen to good people and bad things to bad people. It is likely to be held by people who have enjoyed healthy, happy, moderately sheltered childhoods.People that experience hard childhoods would have a difficult time with this hypothesis. It does not match their lived experience.
As much as I was unprepared for the tragedy and hardship that befell our little family, I cannot blame my parents for giving me a childhood of relative safety, security, and love. We should all be so lucky.
I had an unconventional childhood –> I think some experiences were more extreme, and in some ways it made some things easier.
A) My parents were both only children of alcoholics who converted to the church. They also had 9 children.
My father was an agnostic as a teenager, and served a mission when he was 19. He was thrown out of his house for joining the church. My parents met about 2 months after my dad got back and my mom was not a member, but hanging out with member friends. They waited the year after my mom was baptized for my mother to be ready to go to the temple before they got married – even against their YSA bishop’s advice because my father believed that they needed to be married in the temple – enough to make it worth the delay. They actually eloped to the temple in the next state over after the year was up. They are 38 years into being married.C) The 3rd child born had a rare genetic defect flare up and wound up having 5 open heart surgeries. Growing up, there are 3 separate instances where she should not have survived the night. My sister was writing medical history as it were. She is still alive and mostly stable. Her heart functions as well as a 70 year old female’s even though she is in her late 20’s, so it is any guess what will happen next. She has undergone multiple instances of oxygen deprivation to her brain, so is mentally impaired. Had her heart worked properly from the start, she would have been very, very smart.
D) I grew up as the 3rd parent in a lot of ways, worrying about things my peers were not. But peer pressure was not a huge issue because I really didn’t have peers to be pressured by. It was also easy to put my square peg in a round hole issue up to my family situation.
E) Part of our family narrative was that if you were living a righteous life, you should expect increased challenges because you were up to it. More or less the gospel of Job. There was a lot of “it is useless to compare your circumstances against others because the challenges you face are tailored for you, and the challenges they face (or lack thereof) are tailored for them. It is very likely that the things they struggle with are odd-jobs level easy for you and vice versa.”
AmyJ wrote:
“it is useless to compare your circumstances against others because the challenges you face are tailored for you, and the challenges they face (or lack thereof) are tailored for them. It is very likely that the things they struggle with are odd-jobs level easy for you and vice versa.”
I call this the “currant bush” theory because of the iconic talk by Elder Hugh B. Brown. It honestly appears to be a fairly stable paradigm to make sense of bad things happening to good people. It is mostly consistent with broader LDS doctrines and has been taught repeatedly from the pulpit.
I like to point out that this theory is not the only one in town. It appears to coexist with the idea of agency (bad people do things and God does not stop them out of respect for agency) and the randomness of a fallen world (why do people get sick or have birth defects? the random luck of the fallen world system of course).
In his powerful talk “tragedy or destiny” SWK states “Answer, if you can. I cannot, for though I know God has a major role in our lives, I do not know how much he causes to happen and how much he merely permits.” I fully respect that SWK declined to endorse just one theory and therefore made room for multiple to co-exist.
Hi Squarepeg, I do not post or come here often anymore, but on occasion, like today, i miss reading the amazing discussions on this group. I love people like you who are so honest, and think deeply about things. I can sooo relate to what you wrote. It is so painful and confusing. Like you mentioned in your post; “on one hand the scriptures and people tell you that God will comfort you through your trials” and “would God give a man a stone, if he asks for a piece of bread?” We grow up hearing about a ‘loving Heavenly Father” who knows all the hairs on your head and is mindful of sparrows. I had an amazing, wonderful earthly Father that I could go to for anything so I loved the idea of a having a Heavenly Father that loved me as his daughter and child. There were times in my life that I did feel comforted and a presence of great love. BUT, I have often felt like you….no comforting or help at all. During the most horrible childbirths, I felt no help. The last 5 years I got extremely painful Rheumatoid Arthritis. I was in screaming pain and begging God to help me. NOTHING happened…I just suffered like hell. I was angry that if there was a God, He was cruel; that I would not treat a dog like that. I did not know how to deal with these feelings and thought. Going to the temple and reading the Bof Mormon just put a dark cloud over my mind.
I did ask a church historian once why God made us live by faith on this earth, rather than writing across the sky, “And now a word from your creater.” I desperately long to have a personal relationship with God where He could talk to me like my dad did. Praying felt like talking to the ceiling. This historian told me that he thought the reason God had us live by faith is so He and we could see what was in our hearts. If we knew for sure there was a big reward or punishment in the next life we might obey or be good for the reward or fear of punishment. But, not knowing, God could see what was in our hearts…..what we would do or how we would live not knowing. I then decided I wanted to be a good person, whether God existed or not. Just to be good for goodness sake. It gave me some peace. Most of the time, I find my prayers answered through other people and loved ones. I do believe we are the eyes and ears of God for each other. Hope this helps.
Bridget
[attachment=0]12688147_10153874277677731_4453640473012533003_n.jpg[/attachment] It is great to hear from you Bridget. I appreciate your thoughts. Thank you Roy! I’m so sorry for my ridiculously delayed reply. Another brain surgery and recovery has been difficult. My cognitive faculties are taking their sweet time recovering, but I do think I have turned a corner and am becoming a bit mentally clearer, so I can now try to make a somewhat coherent reply. AmyJ,
You probably share my sentiment that sometimes it is thoroughly exhausting and isolating to have to choose one’s words so very carefully amidst TBMs who are supposed to be our brothers and sisters. But the alternatives sound worse.
Roy,
I found Hugh B. Brown’s currant bush talk. Thanks. I must be bitter because I think I’d joyfully trade places with Hugh B. Brown and lose the big promotion I expected to get, rather than go through what I’ve gone through. What an awful attitude, no? I know it’s impossible for me to know just how difficult that was for him and none of us can compare our suffering to someone else’s and be assured that the comparison is accurate. But I feel that extreme physical (or mental) suffering that never or hardly lets up and that goes on for years and decades seems to me worse than any other kind of suffering. Not that I can really know, since I’ve not suffered every possible type of thing. President Kimball seemed to have humility; I really respect that about him.
Bridget,
Thank you for sharing your struggles with RA. I am so sorry you have dealt with that. Your suffering sounds familiar…the purely animalistic brutal physical suffering that reaches the absolute heights and you know that Hell cannot possibly be worse. It just feels absolutely pointless, that it can’t possibly be teaching you anything, anymore than a mean kid is “teaching” a bird when he shoots it full of BBs. All it wants in every second is for the torture to stop. There can be no contemplation, no consideration of what this might be teaching, because the pain is too much and too persistent to hear or see or feel anything beyond or outside of just PAIN.
I like the historian’s reasoning for why we must live by faith and not knowledge of God. That’s very thought-provoking.
I want to thank everyone for helping me through this. I have read the replies three or four times now and they continue to help me. You all are wonderful.
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