How to increase addiction — church discipline

[Anonymous]

russdm wrote:

If you have the PM problem, don’t ever expect anyone to ever consider you worth loving and you can expect to be viewed as being worse than pond scum or horse crap by people. Also, don’t ever consider it worth while to try to have a relationship with someone of the opposite gender that could involve love or more; it will never happen and you are a fool for believing it.

Only Peter Priesthood guys have a chance of marrying a LDS Girl/Woman; everyone else has no chances.

I know a few exceptions, but not enough to really counter this generally. It takes a long time to regain trust, even when sins have been committed years ago.

It makes for the argument to not disclose…again, isolation.

[Anonymous]

russdm wrote:

If you have the PM problem, don’t ever expect anyone to ever consider you worth loving and you can expect to be viewed as being worse than pond scum or horse crap by people. Also, don’t ever consider it worth while to try to have a relationship with someone of the opposite gender that could involve love or more; it will never happen and you are a fool for believing it.Only Peter Priesthood guys have a chance of marrying a LDS Girl/Woman; everyone else has no chances.

I think I get where you are coming from here russdm. It appears to be from a position of frustration. I agree that we overly shame this issue. I once wrote into a pre-mission journal that unless I was able to overcome PM then I would never be able to find fulfillment with a real woman. I thought that this habit would disqualify me from a happy marriage. Either she would not be able to compare to my fantasy or she would not want me because of this issue.

However, I am also an example of how this statement is way overly broad. I did meet a great young woman, RM, college graduate, and bishop’s daughter. She had absolutely everything that I was looking for and she loved me. For me ultimately, to be loved and cared for by a real person left any pubescent fantasy in the dust. My ability to love and commit myself was not ruined and she did not reject me.

[moderator note: As I have explained above, your statement is overly broad and is just not true when taken to that extreme. Please try to refrain from such sweeping statements in the future.]

[Anonymous]

Rob and Russ, not to belabor a point, but I have agreed in this thread with the gist of the talk. What I have said in my last few comments simply is that “the Church” is not as extreme as all or nothing statements make it sound.

I know of quite a few people, in multiple wards and branches living in multiple states, who have been through a disciplinary process and not had to remain silent. I know of a couple who have been told to keep quiet – because they had actively caused serious divisions and contention in their wards.

Due to my callings and other experiences, I also know of people who have struggled with porn issues (some serious) who have married active, faithful members after revealing their issues.

Yes, we have serious issues in the Church regarding how we handle addiction, generally, and porn, specifically (including how we define addiction relative to porn), but it is not universal, without exception – and I personally have seen movement in the last few years in the right direction, despite the near obsession with porn. We have a long way to go before our common discourse is truly healthy, but it isn’t totally extreme. There is room for varying experiences, and they do exist – dependent largely on leadership roulette.

[Anonymous]

Ray, I love your comments. You balance things out.

Old-Timer wrote:

Rob and Russ, not to belabor a point, but I have agreed in this thread with the gist of the talk. What I have said in my last few comments simply is that “the Church” is not as extreme as all or nothing statements make it sound.

I think in many ways this is true, but not always. I’ve worked with some pretty hard core bishops and SPs. I’m aware of some as well. It happens enough that it is not unique.

I, for example, have first hand knowledge of a bishop who was working with an excommunicated man. This man went to his bishop and said: “I’ve repented. I’m ready to start the rebaptism process.” This bishop’s response was: “I don’t think you will ever be ready for rebaptism.”

The bishop stopped all forward progress. So, this man went to the SP and said the same thing. The SP, however, went to the Lord and confirmed in prayer it was time, and the process went forward, eventually ending in this man’s blessings being restored.

My point is that this bishop and others I know, including SPs, are hard liners. They want the “punishment” (and I’ve heard that word used more than once) to match the sin as they interpret it.. If the sin involves adultery (for example), then by golly, that person should pay and suffer because that sin, after all, is the sin next to murder (another hard line approach and interpretation).

There are also examples of bishops and SP who land more on the side of mercy. Its a mix. I think you would agree both types are out there.

Old-Timer wrote:

I know of quite a few people, in multiple wards and branches living in multiple states, who have been through a disciplinary process and not had to remain silent.

I know a few to. But, I know some who have been told to remain silent. I see both.

Old-Timer wrote:

Due to my callings and other experiences, I also know of people who have struggled with porn issues (some serious) who have married active, faithful members after revealing their issues.

I brought up the porn issue primarily because of all issues, that one tends to drive people “underground” with hiding and isolation. This TED talk I mentioned seems to apply in large measure with that particular problem.

With regards to them marrying faithful members after…I’ve seen this as well. It is usually someone who is more mature spiritually. For example, I know a family where a son went really off the deep end–lots of illicit sex, drugs, alchohol, and so forth. The son was a RM who just threw it all away. As this family struggled to love and try to somehow reach this son, the family itself changed: they became more sincere, more loving, better able to feel and weep, smile, and laugh when needed, etc. This family went through a “seasoning” process, a maturing if you will.

When I have seen a person with issues able to disclose those issues and still move forward in marriage, it is almost always associated with someone who has been “seasoned”. For some reason, the atonement means more, at least to them. For them, the past can really be in the past.

When I’ve seen this, I confess, it is reassuring. VERY VERY reassuring.

With regards to PM disclosure hitting a brick wall and ending a relationship?…to me it seems to usually involve TBM folks who haven’t been seasoned.

I’ve said this before and I will say it again: something happens to people when they are wounded. If they will allow, the wounds somehow make them more tender, more sensitive, and more compassionate. It “seasons” them.

Old-Timer wrote:

Yes, we have serious issues in the Church regarding how we handle addiction, generally, and porn, specifically (including how we define addiction relative to porn), but it is not universal, without exception – and I personally have seen movement in the last few years in the right direction, despite the near obsession with porn. We have a long way to go before our common discourse is truly healthy, but it isn’t totally extreme. There is room for varying experiences, and they do exist – dependent largely on leadership roulette.

I’ve seen improvements as well, but in pockets that are isolated. It seems that as the problems spread (and porn is a big one), leaders are having to deal with family members who have issues–and when they (the leaders) see the heartache and suffering first hand with loved ones, it can soften their hearts. I’ve seen that translate into the leaders being more understanding and compassionate with those who struggle.

I hope the process continues.

[Author]

Posts