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YES, I think it’s most useful to define mental illness as within two standard deviations of normal in a normal Gaussian distribution. Thanks for the curve graphic, Heber13. 🙂 nibbler wrote:
Normal becomes a trait we judge to be good and the things that serve as obstacles to developing that trait are the illnesses?
Maybe that’s the criteria by which we define “sin” rather than “illness”?
nibbler wrote:
As an orthodox believer I equated extroversion with righteousness and introversion as a sin (of omission). Hand on Bible I feel it was the result of the teachings and emphasis we place on things as a church culture.
Your experiences are familiar to me. I had a close fellow-introvert friend in one ward, and we used to discuss this very question: Is extroversion better, or more righteous, than introversion? Are we morally obligated to try to force ourselves to be extroverts? I am not sure, but I lean toward, “No”. Because while extroverts might be better at Home Teaching, introverts might be better at the Law of Chastity. Not joking. I think extroversion absolutely makes it easier to tick off the checkbox-type behavioral displays of “correct” behavior that members consider outward manifestations of righteousness.
I wonder whether the church unintentionally weeds out introverts. I mean, I wonder whether the retention rate is higher among extroverts, because the social aspect of being active is much more rewarding for extroverts, making them more likely to stay in the event of a faith crisis. If so, then introversion
within the church(not within the broader society) may be rare enough to be considered a mental illness! Roy wrote:
A grace filled understanding of eternal progression (Ray has described it simply as progression at the pace that is right for you until you insist on stopping) IS one of those bridges for me. It is not part of the dominant narrative that I hear at church. It is not something that my SS teacher, EQP, or Bishop will validate for me. However, the ingredients for this belief are found in our scriptures and the concepts are just as well reasoned, beautiful, and inspiring as any other teaching you may find.For me, the concept of progression between kingdoms is
useful. It is a tether that anchors the kite of my personal beliefs to the monolithe of Mormonism. It helps to keep me from floating away. I hope that answers the question.
Thanks. I’m adopting the grace-filled understanding of eternal progression. It is beautiful. It gives me hope. It’s what I imagine a loving God’s program to be like. It’s how I had reasoned things out as a kid. It made sense then; it still makes sense. It’s so cool to see quotes supporting it and to know others hold this view/hope, also.
Some people have speculated that the great visionaries of history have similar psychological frameworks – that they are “abnormal” or “”disabled” in some way – that they see things “normal” people don’t because they simply are wired differently. Schizophrenia, disassociation disorders, euphoria, etc. are fascinating conditions. I think that might be true, and our tendency to diagnose and treat every irregularity now might be eliminating our visionaries. Perhaps Abraham, Moses, Muhammad, Jesus, Joseph Smith, etc. (and Plato, Shakespeare, MLK, Jr, Gandhi, Churchill, etc.) might have lived “normal”, medicated lives if they had born now. The world might have been less volatile, but I don’t think it would have been better.
Just something to consider.
Quote:
I think that might be true, and our tendency to diagnose and treat every irregularity now might be eliminating our visionaries. Perhaps Abraham, Moses, Muhammad, Jesus, Joseph Smith, etc. (and Plato, Shakespeare, MLK, Jr, Gandhi, Churchill, etc.) might have lived “normal”, medicated lives if they had born now. The world might have been less volatile, but I don’t think it would have been better.It’s already happened. As I said earlier – look at the contemporary built environment, look at what is on in the cinema/television and on the radio. Most of it is unimaginative cheap inferior drivel. It is created of despair & commercial compromise and manufactures despair.
Old Timer wrote:
Some people have speculated that the great visionaries of history have similar psychological frameworks – that they are “abnormal” or “”disabled” in some way – that they see things “normal” people don’t because they simply are wired differently. Schizophrenia, disassociation disorders, euphoria, etc. are fascinating conditions.I think that might be true, and our tendency to diagnose and treat every irregularity now might be eliminating our visionaries.
I think that’s absolutely true in some cases. I’m inclined to assume that when an unusual mental framework is so extreme as to render the person unable to function as an independent member of society (can’t hold any type of job, can’t interact with others in a productive way, etc.) it might be best to consider intervention. But most of the people you cited don’t have problems of that severity. Van Gogh is one whom I wonder whether he might have been better off medicated (had there been a suitable med in his day), even though he produced amazing work and medication may have interfered with his artistic creativity.
There is another aspect of psychotropic medication of which I’m reminded: In a previous ward, a friend and I were discussing how many women in our Relief Society seemed to be clinically depressed and how many of them were taking prescription drugs to treat their depression. She expressed the possibility that having many of the women in a ward Relief Society on meds for depression, and thereby presumably “artificially” boosting their emotional states, might have a detrimental impact on the women who were struggling through difficult times and were experiencing depression or depressive-like states without the aid of medication, because the latter group might observe the former group’s seeming insulation against depressive moods and feel that they, themselves, were perhaps not handling their own depressive feelings very well, and feel discouraged and isolated. It would be virtually impossible to test whether or to what degree this actually occurs, but it seems like a probable scenario within some wards. I’m not sure what the implications would be. I certainly don’t want anyone to stop taking their meds if by doing so there might be a risk of harm to themselves or others.
Our modern interpretation of the Word of Wisdom includes discouraging drug use, but this doesn’t apply to prescription drugs, obviously, even though some drugs formerly used under medical supervision are now considered to fall in the category prohibited by the WoW (cocaine, heroin, etc.). Interesting to think about.
If the people of the western world were not so medicated there would have been a revolution years ago… I need to make sure I am crystal clear about something: I believe strongly our children are being over-medicated, generally, but I also am deeply grateful for the advances in medicine that allow medications to be so widely available. My mother was schizophrenic, and medicine helped prolong her life 30 years beyond her brother who was on and off his mess. My son is Tyoe 1 diabetic, and he would have been dead in middle school without advances in insulin treatments. Medicine is the best option, especially initially, for lots of people with depression and other anxiety issues. I work with kids with special needs, and for many of them medicine is a life-saver.
Having said all of that, I do wonder how many visionaries we have lost and will continue to lose.
ROld Timer wrote:
I believe strongly our children are being over-medicated, generally, but I also am deeply grateful for the advances in medicine that allow medications to be so widely available.[…]Having said all of that, I do wonder how many visionaries we have lost and will continue to lose.
Regression to the mean. It’s good and it’s bad.
I hope this isn’t bending this thread into a different tangent, but I just listened to a very interesting podcast on Testosterone (This American Life #220). I will bring up 2 items among several that were covered.
One guy suddenly lost ALL his testosterone. Of course he lost his libido, but he also lost almost all emotion, all his drive to do anything (wasn’t depressed), didn’t care what food tasted like, couldn’t really “think”, and thought everything was “beautiful” – but with zero emotion behind it.
Another was a woman that was transitioning to a man was given a huge shot of T to get her body to start changing. She couldn’t believe how she suddenly was sexualizing everything. She used to be attracted to women, but now she lusted after most all of them. She even mentioned that the copy machine at work somehow became sexual.
I have heard of another woman transitioning to a man and she commented after feeling the change in so much of her thoughts after getting a big dose of T that “she no longer felt that people truly have agency.”
My understanding is that the second one that got a “big” shot of Testosterone was still only a
verysmall shot. So this (and other hormones) are VERY potent and can really drive. I know some mental illness is not just “an imbalance of the chemical soup in the brain”, but some conditions are.
It leads me to feel we still really don’t know all that much on all these subjects.
I really think these days libido can be exaggerated…. there’s this idea that if you have high sex drive you must practically rape or pounce on anyone you see. Not so. Sex drive is an urge like any other that can be controlled to some extent. You might feel like it but you don’t have to do it. But it’s not presented that way in popular culture, and I’ve talked to people who think that. Self-control in these situations is important – if we don’t have any we end up losing civilization (there are signs we already largely have in the west). I found myself in a situation where I was strongly attracted to a married woman at church a few years ago. (I didn’t know she was married at first). But it was also a solid marriage and I liked the husband, so instead of attempting to break up their marriage, I made a point of avoiding her. I could have gone the other way – successfully or unsuccessfully (not sure which is worse) – but I didn’t.
The man you mention sounds as if he was under the influence of depression except the “everything is beautiful” bit.
SamBee wrote:
I really think these days libido can be exaggerated…. there’s this idea that if you have high sex drive you must practically rape or pounce on anyone you see. Not so. Sex drive is an urge like any other that can be controlled to some extent. You might feel like it but you don’t have to do it. But it’s not presented that way in popular culture, and I’ve talked to people who think that. Self-control in these situations is important – if we don’t have any we end up losing civilization (there are signs we already largely have in the west).
I agree. My point wasn’t that we could use high testosterone as a defense for rape. There were times I honestly wanted to beat my kids, but I never did. My point was just how powerful of control some (even natural) chemicals have on how our brain works. I think the point was we shouldn’t assume everyone feels just like us.SamBee wrote:I found myself in a situation where I was strongly attracted to a married woman at church a few years ago. (I didn’t know she was married at first). But it was also a solid marriage and I liked the husband, so instead of attempting to break up their marriage, I made a point of avoiding her. I could have gone the other way – successfully or unsuccessfully (not sure which is worse) – but I didn’t.
You are not alone and good job.
SamBee wrote:The man you mention sounds as if he was under the influence of depression except the “everything is beautiful” bit.
Yep, but he said he didn’t feel depression at all. No sadness at all. Just lack of motivation to do almost anything and loss of most any emotion. I find that really interesting.SamBee wrote:Sex drive is an urge like any other that can be controlled to some extent. You might feel like it but you don’t have to do it.
The interesting thing about the topic of mental illness is how it impacts this very notion, in sex drive or any other emotion or impulse. How much can the person “control” their response, and how much is their brain wired differently that they can’t see the choices and connect the consequence or outcome to the choice? If they CAN’T see the connection…are they really choosing? Are they responsible for the choice? What can they control? What should we do with a person who doesn’t seem to hold themselves to the natural consequence?And to LH’s point…when you can see a real impact of these chemicals in a person…the more confusing it is about how much we think and understand and control those thoughts, or how much is driven by chemicals to the brain.
I think that has some strange impact on the plan of salvation that I don’t understand.
LookingHard wrote:
Yep, but he said he didn’t feel depression at all. No sadness at all. Just lack of motivation to do almost anything and loss of most any emotion. I find that really interesting.
That’s exactly what clinical depression is like. Not sadness, but loss of emotion and motivation.
ydeve wrote:
LookingHard wrote:
Yep, but he said he didn’t feel depression at all. No sadness at all. Just lack of motivation to do almost anything and loss of most any emotion. I find that really interesting.
That’s exactly what clinical depression is like. Not sadness, but loss of emotion and motivation.
That’s true. We often think of depression as misery but it also causes inertia and numbness.
LookingHard wrote:
SamBee wrote:
I really think these days libido can be exaggerated…. there’s this idea that if you have high sex drive you must practically rape or pounce on anyone you see. Not so. Sex drive is an urge like any other that can be controlled to some extent. You might feel like it but you don’t have to do it. But it’s not presented that way in popular culture, and I’ve talked to people who think that. Self-control in these situations is important – if we don’t have any we end up losing civilization (there are signs we already largely have in the west).
I agree. My point wasn’t that we could use high testosterone as a defense for rape. There were times I honestly wanted to beat my kids, but I never did. My point was just how powerful of control some (even natural) chemicals have on how our brain works. I think the point was we shouldn’t assume everyone feels just like us.
I think these hormones can give us a stronger propensity towards something. Brain damage can destroy control though.
Interesting what you say about wanting to beat your kids. Stephen King said he experienced it and that was the basis for The Shining… ratcheting it up from that into something more serious for the novel
LookingHard, that’s facinating about the testosterone reactions of those people described in the podcast. I agree that the absence of emotion sounds like clinical depression; that’s exactly how it manifests in my son. Maybe he has low T (although he is only 11)!
I think we can safely say that our thoughts and behaviors are
influencedby neurotransmitter/hormone levels, but I think the extent to which those chemicals controlour thoughts and behaviors is still a gray area. In my quest to understand why I experienced an extended period of inability to feel God’s presence, I’ve been reading a little bit lately about the research on spiritual experience and how it interacts with levels of various hormones and neurotransmitters. I think there are some environmental situations that may make a person unable or less able to feel the Spirit, and that may be a permanent state for some people. I know of a few people who claim they have never felt the Spirit…ever. And they’re good people. Two of these people don’t go to church anymore, and I can’t say that I blame them. If I literally never felt the Spirit, I am not sure I would find enough of value in it to keep going. I wonder if something in their genetics or environment changed their hormone/neurotransmitter levels such that feeling the Spirit wasn’t possible for them, and that in turn affected their behavior (church attendance). (I am not implying that lack of church attendance is bad. I think everyone’s path is his own. I just mean to reinforce the point we’ve been making, which is that biology definitely profoundly affects thought and behavior in some circumstances.)
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