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Thoreau wrote:
Non-white shirts and facial hair are not reliable indicators.
cwald wrote:Really?
cwald, I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or serious.Daeruin wrote:Thoreau wrote:Non-white shirts and facial hair are not reliable indicators.
cwald wrote:Really?
cwald, I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or serious.Maybe both simultaneously.
😆 Maybe we need to start talking in code.
“You know, I was at SL meeting today.” (i.e. surfing the Stay LDS boards)
“Oh, yes, what’s that?”
“Oh, nothing, I meant Sacrament Meeting.”
“On a Thursday?”
“Erm, I have to go.”
(Flunk)
“You know, I was at SL meeting today.”
“Yeah, me too. And I checked out a couple of the other boards too.”
“You’re not _________ are you?”
“Yeah, that’s me. I totally loved that ‘How to Spot Possible Members of the “StayLds Ward?”‘ posting man!”
(Gives token and a big hug. Definite pass.)
Thoreau wrote:Non-white shirts and facial hair are not reliable indicators.
But white shirts and a clean shave are not reliable indicators either! I often attend clean shaven in a white shirt. I hate white shirts, and shaving, but needs must.
I think even we tend to stereotype. It’s human nature. In this specific case, I think we often assume someone in a white shirt who is clean-shaven (who isn’t displaying certain “markers”) who doesn’t make heterodox comments is, therefore, orthodox – and doing so makes us even more different in our own eyes than we generally are. It reinforces our uniqueness, which is a common coping mechanism, but, in most cases, I am convinced it does so incorrectly.
The key is getting to know someone personally well enough to know how they see things regardless of what they wear and say at church – and that takes conscious effort to use our non-church time to get to know people, which is not easy at all to do.
mercyngrace wrote:I would love the chance to meet everyone, too. Is there a chance any of you are in North Carolina?
Perhaps an outdated posting, but better late than never: I’m also in North Carolina and know of at least a few other members of the “community” in my area.
Daeruin wrote:Just going off comments I’ve read here, you might watch for people who read their own material during the meetings, skip certain meetings, or attend irregularly.
Bingo. I’m shameless about it now. Skip priesthood, and read through Sacrament meeting. It’s a little less unobtrusive if you use a Kindle or handheld device, but I don’t really care anymore. If anyone asks me or calls me on it, I smile politely and keep on doing it. I do perk up when they say something interesting, though, in their talks.
Also, check out the people with colored shirts.
I had one guy tell me the other day that he “doesn’t do Mormon very well”. That is a conversation opener at some point.
I think it would be cool to have a StayLDS Ward.
Here is what I would like to see in it:
a) 1.5 hours of meetings — a short sacrament meeting, and then a Sunday School or Priesthood/RS meeting, Perhaps alternating each week between the two. And the times would be at memorable intervals like Sacrament 9:00 am to 9:30 and Sunday school from 9:40 to 10:30.
b) HT assignments, but only in the event of actual needs do the HT’s go to the family. Further, there is an annual opt-in to the program from Home Teachees. If they dont’ respond that they want HT”s, the HT’s role is simply to be there if there is a service need. Like a buffer between the Bishop and the unlimited needs of the Ward, but no visits expected.
c) There would be something in place that leads to ever-improving teaching, speaking and lesson quality.
d) Wards can opt to use the third hour for leadership and quorum/class meetings to plan the work of the church.
e) There would be a quarterly survey of the Ward regarding the meeting quality, the extent to which members feel uplifted, strengthened, and have the quality of relationships they want. Maybe not those exact metrics, but some kind of metric that measures how people are engaging with the church experience.
f) No fast and testimony meeting. The comments are ridiculous half the fime, and I think we lose as many converts over the testimonies as we gain!
g) Really good, consistent training and self-improvement opps for teachers to improve the Sunday meetings.
h) The CHI would be a guide, not engraved in stone like most people treat it.
i) Mispoken Sacrament prayers are let go after the first attempt to correct it, and minor slippages in wording go uncorrected.
SD, I’d add to the home teaching part let people choose who they teach instead of assigning them. If I could choose who I visit, I’d do much better at it. I don’t like going to people I don’t really know – and I don’t even mind going to less active members if I know them. Make it less of a duty and more of a service. And those long-term inactives who don’t even know or remember basic doctrines? Maybe have someone assigned to drop by every year or two. Oh, and the facial hair/shirt color thing? Two of our high councilors and a bishop in a neighboring ward have facial hair, and anywhere from a third to a half of the high council wear the same colored shirt they wore to work to HC meeting. Not an indicator here.
If you are authentic and make comments that aren’t the standard answers, they will come to you, I swear. SilentDawning wrote:b) HT assignments, but only in the event of actual needs do the HT’s go to the family. Further, there is an annual opt-in to the program from Home Teachees. If they dont’ respond that they want HT”s, the HT’s role is simply to be there if there is a service need. Like a buffer between the Bishop and the unlimited needs of the Ward, but no visits expected.
I like that one. I get the impression that people feel guilt over not doing HT but in most cases the families are perfectly fine without receiving a monthly visit. All that guilt is for nothing. Your plan also accounts for the families that actually want that visit.
SilentDawning wrote:c) There would be something in place that leads to ever-improving teaching, speaking and lesson quality.
I had along winded response but it all came down to: a good lesson is subjective. I mean
someonemust really like taking turns reading straight out of the Teachings of the Prophets manuals. SilentDawning wrote:e) There would be a quarterly survey of the Ward regarding the meeting quality, the extent to which members feel uplifted, strengthened, and have the quality of relationships they want. Maybe not those exact metrics, but some kind of metric that measures how people are engaging with the church experience.
That’s another tricky one. Can you imagine how the disposed teacher would feel? A survey about satisfaction with church meetings gets distributed, I get released from teaching SS a week later.
😥 SilentDawning wrote:f) No fast and testimony meeting. The comments are ridiculous half the fime, and I think we lose as many converts over the testimonies as we gain!
How about a compromise? At the start of every school year one sacrament meeting should be dedicated to giving people a forum to come up and tell everyone about what they did over the summer.
😈 I kid, I kid.DarkJedi wrote:SD, I’d add to the home teaching part let people choose who they teach instead of assigning them. If I could choose who I visit, I’d do much better at it.
While I like the idea and agree 100% with the reason I just don’t think it would work in practice. You’d have half the ward sign up to visit the popular, charismatic young couple and you’d end up with many people completely overlooked. The overlooked would feel miserable about being overlooked and the HT assignments would just be a measure of a family’s popularity. As much as I hate the assigned friends program, it’s that way for a reason.
I’d be in favor of scrapping the entire HT program but that’s a topic for another thread.
I don’t have a good feel on this either. Luckily I have been able to find some great people in my area and have some very close friends who are of the StayLDS ilk. It helps a lot, especially as some are further down their faith transition path and can lend some support and insight. It makes the journey much easier. In my calling I wear a blue shirt a lot, whenever I can. I do kind of use it as an indicator of non-orthodoxy. I have no idea if anyone notices or cares. No one has ever said anything about it.
Talks and lessons are the best place I think since you get to hear people’s actual thoughts. And now that I am on the other side, what people say and don’t say is very interesting. Especially when you pick up on thoughts/ideas that you have seen in the bloggernacle being expressed by someone in a comment or talk.
But the approach can be a bit tough…still don’t have a great handle on it.
I make a habit of looking over everyone’s shoulders at church to see which websites they are looking at on their phones and tablets. Usually Facebook. No, only kidding!
I think “ye shall know them by their fruits” is the best marker here. Some of us wear white shirts (me), some of us make comments that reveal they’ve thought a bit about the subject and not just parrotted whichever manual… I swear there are a few of us at leadership level too.
I’m not mad keen on white shirts, but I wear them to keep the peace. I’m not at church to cause an upset. I’ve got my views and individual testimony, though not the way many people did.
That’s why I put UT in my screen name. If anyone here in Utah ever wants to find someone else from UT its fairly obvious. Bountiful specifically. I also wear tank tops outside and don’t try to dress as if I am covering garments because I wont wear them. Also if you were every to run into me at a pool you might catch a glimpse of the tattoo I got two years ago. I don’t hide. I am right out in public. hawkgrrrl wrote:If you are authentic and make comments that aren’t the standard answers, they will come to you, I swear.
Until your comments make people uncomfortable. Then they will crucify you.
This is one of my favorite things to do since I became “active” again. It takes time, patience & a lot of listening.
I have found that a number in my ward haven’t necessarily gone through a “crisis of faith”.
They naturally question. The questions may not be to challenge the Church or doctrine but to challenge members
to see if they really believe & can support what they believe. (Does that make sense?)
One of them is my HT. I know I can say anything & know that it will remain confidential.
One is a former Bishop of our ward.
One is a current Councilor in the Bishopric.
We may not always agree. But, we don’t feel threatened because we ask a question.
Having said that, I don’t have any illusions either.
If I started to advocate polygamy, somewhere it’s going to get back to the Bishop, SP, etc.
This site has been great for me as a start to a process, but I really prefer talking with people face to face.
It has been a big comfort to find others in my ward that feel the same way I do.
That reminds me, Mike. Whenever you’re in my town of Illinois, just let me. I would like to see in person. 🙂 I’ll send you a PM.
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