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I never said “ban” anything. I don’t believe banning works (see prohibition, and the expensive and ultimately futile American “War on drugs”) – in fact i think the western world needs to rethink its drugs policy entirely. I think the government should take certain steps which would involve addicts getting access to drugs, while lessening the power of dealers.. All of these things have to be personal choices. I don’t really care where the WoW comes from, it’s clear that at least some of it is of worth… even if that’s only the giving up of tobacco.
Quote:You used an example of someone getting in a car accident from caffeine induced epilepsy. I’m going to guess that more people have died in car accidents from reaching down and picking up a piece of candy off the floor? Should we include candy in the word of wisdom? No.
No, but we should ban people from doing certain things while driving. Like using a phone, as many countries do, or picking something off of the floor. Obviously a lot of candy is bad for you though – it wrecks your teeth and makes you put on weight.
But like I say, I really don’t think people realize that there are some serious problems related to caffeine, which isn’t helped by the fact that certain coffee chains make extremely strong coffee.
Quote:There are also risks involved with guns, ATVs, sex, saturated fats, Big Macs etc.
For what it’s worth I steer clear of these as much as possible. I’m lucky if I eat at McDonalds once a year. As for sex, I’ve always taken precautions, have taken blood tests, and am celibate now. The only one of these I have a problem with is the fats, and I have reduced my intake of those by a massive amount.
I think fat and processed sugar is a serious problem for Mormons, and I think we’ve discussed this elsewhere.
Quote:are made from god given plants
Cyanide and strychnine also come from “God given plants”, but please don’t give me any!
I’m still undecided about green tea just now, and I don’t deny that I’ve enjoyed tea and coffee in the past, but they have given me health problems, that I now no longer have, or which have receded into the background. I didn’t even know that these were down to them until recently.
I’ve just been reading an article today about the brain and its performance. One of the things it said was that we should be careful not to be dehydrated as the brain is largely water, and so a lack of water makes it not perform so well. It mentioned alcohol and coffee as two examples of substances which cause such dehydration.
I agree with your whole post Sam — these things CAN be harmful to one’s health. However – they don’t HAVE to be. SamBee wrote:I never said “ban” anything.
No, you didn’t. But isn’t that what we are talking about? The WofW, as taught by the church today, is a “BAN” of the forbidden four (alcohol, tea, coffe and tobacco.) And I agree with you, “banning” doesn’t work. So why does the church teach the “ban?” IMO, the WofW was meant to give some good advice and wisdom on how to use moderation and discretion to maintain health. That is the kind of info that needs to go into the STayLDS article.
I don’t see the church thing as a ban, as such, because it’s pretty much voluntary. It’s possible not to live the WoW and remain in the church, and it’s also possible to leave the church altogether, if you wish to. I see it as more of a contract than a ban, whereas the government bans are something you have to comply with, or you’re breaking the law and could be jailed. With the church stuff, you don’t get a temple recommend… I’m not going to get the police breathing down my neck if I break the wow. In fact, I could still go in, get the sacrament, and break the wow as well. And I think I could still get a fair bit out of Mormonism, without sticking to it too.
I think the paragraph is going to have to contain four things in brief –
1) interpretation of the wow, and how it is worded very differently to how people imagine
2) decent alternatives e.g. redbush tea, so that people can enjoy life without breaking it necessarily
3) what’s not specified, e.g. cola, cooking such as rum cake and probably marinades.
4) something about the health risks associated with each.
I thgink these are all important.
I know I sound like a broken record to some, but a discussion of the WoW that doesn’t include the very premise it outlines itself (a moderated standard designed to protect the weak from conspiring addiction peddlers) simply isn’t a discussion of the actual revelation we call the WofW. Some might disagree with my own interpretation of those verses (and/or the emphasis I personally put on them), but it is the actual explanation given in the actual wording. To not address it first . . . and as the stated intent . . .
Well, good luck with this one….. 😯 Having gone through all of the possible iterations of this issue/topic in the last two years, I’m overwhelmed by the sense of how much this issue ISN’T about the church or spirituality or relationship to God, but rather the way that the LDS culture has so deeply defined it’s image to the world using this topic. (in my mind it’s a tie between families are forever and WoW)
So… having said that, logic, history and practical health definitions ultimately don’t matter. It’s a strictly emotional concept at this point for almost all TBM’s and, of course, anyone passing through disaffection. If the end result is to gain a “testimony” about the WoW, then from an emotionally healthy standpoint, one would have to experience this on a practical, personal level, free from the manipulations of guilt, shame, or embarrassment.
I’m not sure how practical what I’m saying would be in a paragraph about the WoW but that’s how I’ve experienced it.
SamBee wrote:…I’ve got to disagree here very strongly. Alcohol kills hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people. I’ve known dozens of people who have suffered ill health partly because of alcohol, and several who have died directly from the effects of it…Caffeine’s effects on the cardiovascular system, cause thousands of heart attacks every year, …Caffeine has a probable link to bowel cancer, which is caused by both bad eating and damage caused by stools hardened by tea and coffee…As for road fatalities,… Thousands are caused by drink driving – wine included by the way.
I don’t think there is any doubt that smoking, too much alcohol and even coffee can be bad for people and I don’t have any problems with the Church preaching against alcohol abuse and unhealthy addictions in general. The problem I have with the WoW is some of the exclusive cult-like attitudes about this where the idea seems to be that good Mormons just don’t do this and if you do then you might as well not consider yourself to be a Mormon anymore. The few relatives and in-laws I have that fell away from the Church single biggest problem with being LDS was clearly the WoW. The end result is that now their children will not be LDS and will probably have a negative attitude about religion in general.
Personally I think it would be better to teach this as a suggestion like it was before and simply say that when Joseph Smith prayed about this he felt inspired to give this advice and leave it at that. I don’t see why we need to tack on the idea that if you drink a few beers or a cup of coffee that this is a sin that will result in eternal condemnation if you don’t repent. Exactly how confident can we really be that this is actually the case? To me this idea just doesn’t make sense and I think it will only hurt the Church’s credibility over the long run.
DA, I have said elsewhere that I don’t think anyone will go to hell for tobacco, tea or coffee. It is a physical thing, but we’re supposed to look after our bodies, that’s the thing. There are things I’d like to see in the WoW, such as hard drugs, and I think there is also a gradation of badness to them. Alcohol is a serious cause of sin, especially violence, whereas caffeine isn’t. Tobacco is mood altering, but doesn’t lead to the same kind of trouble. It is very bad for the body. Tea and coffee don’t cause people to do bad things, but they do come with special effects, even in small quantities.
Thank you everyone for all your great observations! I am always impressed and learn new things. Just as a reminder to keep this on topic, let’s avoid debates about the Word of Wisdom in this thread. I need to focus specifically on recommendations for counselling people who are questioning their faith — to help them make the most responsible decisions until they settle in and are comfortable making decisions about the pros and cons.
Focus on what to tell people and how to say it, keeping in mind we are talking most likely to people fresh in the stages of doubt and crisis, and that we do not want to encourage anyone to make poor life decisions (regardless of the truthfullness, validity or sound science of the WofW).
SamBee wrote:Do I have to spell it out Rix? I have sent you a private message on this subject, about exactly why I’m happy to give up tea and coffee.
Sorry SB…been busy today. Yes, I’m sure there are many substances that can be harmful in many ways — and different for each person. And I think your quoted study may be accurate. No argument there.
Here is a quick CDC report on the leading causes of death:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm Four of the top five are directly, or indirectly, the result of over-eating and obesity. So my only point is that IF (and that’s a big IF) the purpose of the WoW is to encourage good health, it is barking up the wrong tree…at least how it is emphasized today in the church.
BTW, I don’t read anywhere in the WoW anything about caffeine. There’s a saying I’ve heard, “how do you tell a good mormon from a bad mormon?
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the temperature of his caffeine! (Utah Couty has the highest per capita intake of diet colas in the world, btw.)
Rix wrote:
BTW, I don’t read anywhere in the WoW anything about caffeine. There’s a saying I’ve heard, “how do you tell a good mormon from a bad mormon?I mentioned that my problems stemmed from tea and coffee, Rix. I don’t drink colas very often. In fact, I can’t remember the last time I had Coke.
I think there are other issues associated with colas too, such as the large amount of sugar in them. I usually avoid them for the simple reason that they make me put on weight. And I can’t stand that diet sweetener (that’s supposed to be very bad for you too, see this video –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n-gA0wvi84 )I mention caffeine in the last post. I don’t think tea, coffee or cola cause sin (at least other sin). They do cause health problems though.
Brian Johnston wrote:Thank you everyone for all your great observations! I am always impressed and learn new things. Just as a reminder to keep this on topic, let’s avoid debates about the Word of Wisdom in this thread.
I need to focus specifically on recommendations for counselling people who are questioning their faith — to help them make the most responsible decisions until they settle in and are comfortable making decisions about the pros and cons.
Focus on what to tell people and how to say it, keeping in mind we are talking most likely to people fresh in the stages of doubt and crisis, and that we do not want to encourage anyone to make poor life decisions (regardless of the truthfullness, validity or sound science of the WofW).
Oops, sorry about participating in the thread-jack, Brian
😳 From a recovering drug addict turned drug counselor, I would say “If a person chooses to begin partaking of some substances previously forbidden, it should be done with moderation and careful consideration. Experience shows us that many disaffected mormons quickly swing with the pendulum to the opposite extreme after “discovering” troubling issues with church claims. The excessive intake of drugs and alcohol almost always makes the “spiritual transition” more difficult than it ever helps…and often leads to addiction and alcoholism — further complicating family relationships, and can lead to fatal decisions and overdoses.”
There, my oblique input….
😆 Thanks Rix, that was really awesome wording. You also brought up a real concern of mine. We can call it the “pendulum effect.” Not only does a pendulum swing in the opposite direction naturally, but it also swings at the highest velocity as it crosses the center point, and it naturally swings as far opposite as the original tension in the original direction. There seems like a real danger that with people who were extremely zealous and pious (I mean that in a positive way).
I can’t help but think of a few people in my life as anecdotal evidence. One person that I see on a regular basis said something that still haunts me a little at times. They were extremely zealous and even in high leadership positions (a very driven person) just a few years ago. I was talking to them about how the Church fell apart for them, and they said they felt like a “kid in a candy store.” All that resistance they had been exerting snapped and in they really flew in the opposite direction … waaaaaay too far, if you ask me. And I am pretty liberal minded in that regard.
So anyway, that is where I am coming from. I want to write a paragraph about the WofW. I personally think people benefit from understanding the history and development of the cultural “doctrine” as practiced today. I would like to ratchet down the topic for people in crisis and let them know it is OK to question things … but I also don’t want to feel responsible for snapping somebody elses rubber-band of sobriety. I hate to say it, but I think many Mormons might be ill-equipped to rush into WofW experimentation as adults. The whole sucky mess of the idea has been so ramped up and tightly wound in our culture. It scares me a little.
I think I am glad I sowed my stupid and juvenile “wild oats” at the right age — when I was still a stupid and juvenile teenager. I was also still “invincible” then.
People that drink seem to pass through stages of drinking to get drunk when you’re a teenager and college student to just drinking as part of a social situation when you’re older. It doesn’t always work that way and unfortunately alcohol can become medication, or escape or just something thats a need for what ever reason. To restate the obvious people that have not been drinkers because of strict religious restrictions sometimes don’t get out of the first stage as a result that those groups have, I think, a higher rate of alcoholism. I think Adventists have a more reasonable attitude in making the advice based on common sense and not a commandment. I expect every person that’s been told not to drink because God commanded it was secretly a little surprised when the first drink didn’t result in lightning or something. And with that out of the way there’s no reason not to keep on keeping on. Quote:People that drink seem to pass through stages of drinking to get drunk when you’re a teenager and college student to just drinking as part of a social situation when you’re older.
Not here. People drink to get drunk their entire lives. It is the social situation!
“I’ll drink to that.” “you’ll drink to anything.”
“I’ll drink to that too.”
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