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Backstory — daughter bullied serverely by girls in her home ward over a period of years. Led to anxiety, depression and then counseling, which helped. She refused to go back, so we attended a different Ward. New friends, positive self-image, got her YW medallion, attends the temple, she became more extraverted — healthy situation all the way around. But there is one YW leader in the “new” ward who repeatedly ostracizes my daughter because she is not formally in the Ward. This leader is the wife of a Bpric member. Most recent instances were not allowing her in the picture at a Mormon prom night after my daughter stood in with her friends, not letting her sign into the dance under the Ward she is attending that is not our own (even though she attends there), and repeatedly objecting to her involvement because she does not live in the Ward. Today this woman started complaining to a Stake leader about it.
Daughter came home crying from church, and very angry about it today after a similar incident. Says she is trying to be active, refuses to subject herself to the bullying in our old ward, and to boot, her parents (us) are not completely active. She is doing her best — why don’t this particular YW leader leave her alone???
How would you respond to this at the daughter and potentially organization level? Remember, the Bishopric in the ward we attend (not our own) is frustrated with us as of late. I don’t think we can go there as non-contributors complaining about the behavior of a YW leader….we are not contributing much there, and we are not in compliance with Church policy on attending the Ward in which you live. My wife refuses to go to our home Ward, although I would consider it the family would go back…but there is no way that is happening.
Not knowing any of the individuals involved except you (and only virtually in your case) I’d say a good lambasting in testimony meeting is probably in order! 😈 OK, just kidding. But a direct approach is probably best. It sounds like this sister is probably pretty aware of your daughter’s situation, but who appointed her the guardian of ward boundaries? Should she not accept anyone in a loving way? Are we not commanded to not only love our neighbors, but love one another? (two different commandments if you read them closely) Did Jesus enforce ward boundaries or did he accept all that came unto him? I would not necessarily fire these types of questions at her, but I would try to appeal to her sense of Christian love (if she has any). And I wouldn’t count out the bishopric or SP.Does the YW leader know whyyour daughter attends a ward that isn’t her home ward? I’d hope that if she knew that her position would soften. nibbler wrote:Does the YW leader know
whyyour daughter attends a ward that isn’t her home ward? I’d hope that if she knew that her position would soften. No, she doesn’t know the reason. We didn’t feel we could share it because we have found that leaders in general are not usually sympathetic to Ward hoppers, particularly who leave wards due to interpersonal conflicts. Plus we really milked the fact that my work was moving toward this Ward.
To DJ’s point about a direct approach. I’m uncomfortable with it for some reason. Probably that in the past, when I have asserted myself or objected to the behavior of people like this woman, they get vindictive. In fact, I have noticed that to happen with different people throughout my history in the volunteer contexts. Each time I’ve asserted myself on issues they feel strongly about, even in a calm and professional manner, there has been a really hateful, relationship-shattering response, normally through complaints to higher ups. I nearly went completely inactive over such an experience about 5 years ago. The kind of vindictive response that makes you lack sleep.
I have to admit, I’m not interested in the kind of unbridled conflict I predict from this person….it has happened to me too many times in volunteer contexts, to the point, and I hate to say it, it is one of my “theories in use” –that asserting myself in this type of context will lead to a testimony-damaging experience, and likely some kind of aggressive and destructive behavior as retaliation. That is another story, and I have been reading books on the subject lately. I have an understanding of why that happens, based on one of the books I am reading. It points to an actually positive personal characteristic I have that makes me a target for such behavior.
If I do confront her (using all my tact and gentlemanly language), it would have to be in the presence of a priesthood holder in authority, because experience, every time, has shown they go to the priesthood leader after I speak to them, and then I get reprimanded from the leader– often — so far, every time without any investigation of what actually happened (such as asking me my side of the story). Having a third party there, in authority, prevents distortion of my message and the subsequent negative consequences. And involving such a priesthood leader isn’t feasible right now given our unofficial status in the Ward.
I am wondering if I should simply support my daughter, and help her cope with this type of near-bullying from the woman — at least, her misguided commitment to church policy in this instance.
Can you talk to your Stake President & get a waver to attend this ward? It hard for me to understand why, at that level, the Stake couldn’t make an exception to the rule.
Their (the Stake) choice is between a family being happy & active, or being inactive.
There is a 3rd choice for the Stake, “deal with bullying”.
It is hard to understand why they stick to the “letter of the law instead of the spirit”.
It is easy for me to say, I don’t have a dog in this fight.
If the choice is going to a ward where my family is unhappy & the local leadership hasn’t made any changes or
going inactive. I would be inactive. (Sad to say.)
Maybe the Stake needs to hear it in your own words.
SilentDawning wrote:She is doing her best — why don’t this particular YW leader leave her alone???
My response would simply be to tell my daughter that others are sometimes idiots. They just are. Seems like God put that into His plan…and it ain’t gonna change in her lifetime.We don’t get to choose how others will treat us. It is part of the reason church helps us grow…dealing with other numb-nuts who have their own agenda and don’t understand how their actions impact others gives us a choice on what we will do.
I agree with DJ…you take a direct approach and tell them the reason she is attending another ward, or your daughter can choose to not attend their ward and find another ward or no ward. A less direct approach is a letter to the bishop to ask if they’ll accept your daughter, and if they are going to be letter of the law about the stupid boundaries thing, then don’t go.
Your daughter can learn that she can be a find individual spirituality without the church, or if she feels committed to the church and God through the church, then she can practice love and patience to deal with those that are in the church who are not perfect. Read her the story of how Nephi had to take his family and leave Laman and Lemuel. He knew it wouldn’t work to stay and try to talk things out…they just had to go. Sometimes…the answer is to just get out of the bushes if we don’t want to get stung by the bees.
There is a lesson for your daughter either way.
What you don’t want to teach your daughter is that her problems are caused by other people and she can just complain but do nothing and hope others will change. That won’t help her later in life. As she takes actions, she’ll feel better about herself.
I told her that the YW leader was being an “idiot” and I think that made her feel better. We are still thinking about what to do about it. I don’t like the direct approach to the YW leader though — if she is petty enough to behave the way she is behaving, she has the kind of personality that will make a big deal out of a “direct intervention” from the parents. My judgment tells me that with all the intuition I have. Still thinking…keep the suggestions coming.
SilentDawning wrote:I told her that the YW leader was being an “idiot” and I think that made her feel better. We are still thinking about what to do about it. I don’t like the direct approach to the YW leader though — if she is petty enough to behave the way she is behaving, she has the kind of personality that will make a big deal out of a “direct intervention” from the parents. My judgment tells me that with all the intuition I have.
Still thinking…keep the suggestions coming.
I saw this last night, but didn’t respond as it angered me too much.What about teaching your daughter to be a bit empowered. Talk to her and lead her to maybe contact the bishop and she can tell him what is going on? She learns a lesson and you are not the parents intervening. I don’t know all the dynamics (and it sounds like there are several going on), but just a thought.
We switched wards for a time under similar circumstances. DD was being verbally bullied by one of the other girls. We told everyone it was for work scheduling so as to preserve the peace and not throw the former ward’s leadership under the bus. We eventually moved into the ward we prefered. I have generally been successful at being direct with other adults. In my experience they are generally good people that actually seem to care about their responsibilities towards the children.
I would ask to meet with her for just a few minutes. I would ask about the points you mentioned in a passive voice/no blaming way. “DD was not allowed to be in picture.” “DD was not permitted to sign into dance under ward name” and ask “Can you help me understand the thought process behind that?”
At this point she may surprise you by or she may start to spout something about ward boundaries.
If she proceeds with the ward boundaries tack then I would empathize with the situation she must be in and then I might give her some of the background for why you are attending the ward and why you can’t go back to the official one. I would probably then say that you have been so overjoyed at seeing the success of this new ward’s YW program and to see DD thrive in that environment.
I might then ask her as a concerned father what needs to be done to allow DD to participate in YW in the new ward without restrictions.
So in general:
1st it helps if you have any kind of social capital.
State the problem in a way that does not cast blame.
Ask for understanding.
Empathize with their situation – validate their position. Make clear that you are on the same team working for the welfare of another (DD in this case).
Explain your perspective and how it might necessitate an exception to the “rules.”
Ask how you might play by the rules and still get your needs met.
Commit to follow through – doing your part to support DD and the organization.
I understand that this might not work well for your particular situation SD. I wrote it anyway thinking that others (lurkers?) might benefit.
If I had some sort of retaliation then I would remove my family from the situation. I feel that I am very reasonable, patient, agreeable, and professional but I will not be walked on and I will not send my children to a voluntary activity where they are being mistreated.
Sorry, I sat on this one for a while but this is an itch I have got to scratch… What’s with having to sign into a ward dance? I’ve never heard of that one.
nibbler wrote:Sorry, I sat on this one for a while but this is an itch I have got to scratch…
What’s with having to sign into a ward dance? I’ve never heard of that one.
We don’t have ward dances (our <12 kids wouldn't have much fun) but we do have stake and multi-stake dances where sign in (and often preregistration) is required. The individual is pledging to live the standards while at the event. What makes it even more puzzling in this case is why this woman would have an issue because generally speaking members of other wards/stakes (and non-members) are permitted at these dances as long as they agree to behave.
DarkJedi wrote:We don’t have ward dances (our <12 kids wouldn't have much fun) but we do have stake and multi-stake dances where sign in (and often preregistration) is required. The individual is pledging to live the standards while at the event. What makes it even more puzzling in this case is why this woman would have an issue because generally speaking members of other wards/stakes (and non-members) are permitted at these dances as long as they agree to behave.
That strikes me as flat out ridiculous; I know at least at the mid singles level, we use the dances as both opportunities to meet those from other stakes and as a missionary opportunity by encouraging nonmembers who will obey the rules (even though the DJs don’t – who the heck thought Walk This Way was appropriate music for a church dance??) to come by and see that we really do dance (badly) and have fun.
I also know a few other converts who were first introduced to the church via YSA dances, and the few times I’ve gone to YSA activities either helping out or as a guest of one of The Forgotten, (the unfortunate ones in the 25-30 range who really have more in common with mids than other YSAs) I’ve always been welcomed even though I’m obviously somewhat past 30. (38)
YSA dances are a bit of a different beast – kind of like llamas and alpacas. I don’t recall as a YSA signing up for a conference where I had to sign an agreement to keep the standards of the church while there. We are adults and it’s taken for granted. The youth conferences (which often include dances) my kids go to all have such agreements, signed by the kid, the parent and usually the bishop or counselor. Likewise, at these conferences and stake dances there are leaders (either YMP/YWP, bishopric, or all) there to make absolutely sure the kids they know are behaving (the exception is EFY). SD….how old is your daughter? I agree talking to this type of person/woman almost never results in anything good. If your daughter is 14 or above perhaps you could have her use the same snide, backhanded approach the leader is using with her against the leader herself? You simply take or agree with whatever the ahole person is saying and repeat it LOUD enough for everyone to hear in the group. Example, next time leader says, “daughter’s name…you can’t be in the picture”, daughter replies loudly, ” oh thank you sister (name) for reminding me and everyone else that you don’t want me here, I appreciate your honesty in your efforts to exclude me.” Then your daughter steps to the side out of the picture but leader looks like the jerk she is. Repeat each time leader does or says something against your daughter. It does take your daughter standing up for herself against an adult but I’ve seen it work many times as long as she has the strength to call her out on the crap.
The approach of agreeing while making it known PUBLICLY what is happening at the time tends to be enough to embarrass these weak, passive aggressive, no true power types since public image and facades are so important to them.
If all else fails or the leader tries to go underground with her approach your daughter can always use the old favorite line, ” well I’m sorry sister (name) that you think you have any real power and that I’m irritating your delusional little kingdom.” But the first approach should be enough to not have to pull out the bigger guns. If it’s not you may have to get involved but id truly say calling them out in public tends to be enough to stop them.
Dax wrote:SD….how old is your daughter? I agree talking to this type of person/woman almost never results in anything good. If your daughter is 14 or above perhaps you could have her use the same snide, backhanded approach the leader is using with her against the leader herself?
She is 16…the backhanded approach — that, I think would get me into trouble. With this woman, I don’t think it will work. The Bpric is currently not after us, and raising this issue with her may well raise the whole issue of our status in the Ward. In fact, it may be the motive of this woman to do raise this issue with the Bpric through her behavior.
As I said, it will likely get us into trouble. Her husband is a member of the Bpric too. And as I said earlier, this type of person, who is coming across as petty, would likely cry “victim” and then get her complaint into the Bishopric. And then I would get reprimanded.
I am leaning on doing nothing direct at this point. The focus could be on coaching my daughter to avoid this woman, and not to respond to her comments. I don’t feel we have a leg to stand on as we are not members of the Ward, and are there as a result of the new Ward’s goodwill and nothing more.
And then, here we are, not in compliance with policy, not contributing tot he Ward, irritating the Bpric with our lack of contribution, while complaining about the wife of a Bpric member….I am afraid it will open a can of worms. This may even be this woman’s motive, to raise the whole issue of our boundary-hopping.
Not sure about the rationale behind the signing in thing. I just know that it happened.
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